Eve O'Brien - May 29 2024 (1)
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EVE: First of all, thank you so much for having a conversation with me.
I am super, super excited, even just to, like, have a chance to chat with you. You're somebody that I find really inspiring and I want to start off for interview honestly, just by saying. Thank you. At the beginning of my first pregnancy with my daughter, Abla, which that was about two years ago now that I had her like the very end days of that pregnancy, like after, you know, but I would lovingly refer to now as my guest date, but Back then, what felt like an eviction date, I found your content and it felt like you were just my cheerleader in those last days.
And I ended up actually shockingly having a pain free birth with her. And it was something I honestly didn't even know was possible and even if it was possible for somebody else, I didn't believe that it could be possible for me until I found your content.
And. You know, we are so fear mongered over the whole birth process as women were taught to fear it our whole lives. And in those last days, I just found your content to be so encouraging. So thank you first of all for that. Thank you for sharing. That's amazing. I love testimonies like that. Well, I'm sure it's amazing now because you probably have so many women coming to you sharing their births.
Stories and sharing how they had these like miraculous pain free birth experiences. And so I kind of want to get a little bit into just, first of all, to establish a foundation, like what is your story? You're a birth doula. You coach women on how to have a pain free birth.
And a lot from a faith based perspective, but how did you even discover that pain free birth was a thing? What led you down this path in the first place?
KAREN: For me, it was really so much my own experience when I got pregnant with my first daughter and never having really thought a whole lot about childbirth before that point or considered any kind of career in birth, I just got pregnant and felt like Everyone's told me that birth is really scary and really painful.
Like my own mother would complain about how painful her birth with me was, and had back labor and it was really, it was unmedicated, but it was excruciating and long and hearing stories from friends about how it's like the most pain they've ever experienced or seeing videos and, you know, health class on childbirth and movies and all, everything was just like, Very negative and It didn't really line up with who I knew god to be It was you know Some like I believe god is a good father and he created my body beautifully and and it's not broken and I don't I just I'd been really on a journey of renewing my spirituality and finding discovering, you know deepening my relationship with with god and You Really uncovering his goodness and his goodness in every area of our life.
And everything I knew about childbirth just didn't line up with, wasn't in alignment with a good father, you know, who wants the best for us. So it's good things for us. And not that there's not suffering and pain in the world and we have to go through hard things, but for it to just be like a set in stone.
This is how birth is supposed to be for every single childbirth. You just have to experience pain and trauma no matter what, like it just didn't make sense in my worldview. And so I challenged it and I started researching and I started asking women and, and digging into resources. And I found the book supernatural childbirth by Jackie Mize.
It's a really old, tiny little book, all about supernatural pain free birth. And that was like my first exposure to it. Like she basically, she wrote that 25, 30 years ago now. And And it's filled with testimonies of pain free births and there's some theology in there that and prayers and declarations that are helpful I've since grown like and don't agree with everything in that book now But I for me and for many women that was like a catalyst of like hey, this is possible and so Then I started praying and asking god for what is there a Can I want to meet somebody who's had a pain free birth?
Like the women giving birth in this book, their babies are like my age. I'm like, does this still happen today? Like, is it, is this real? Are people really doing this? So I, it took me months to find a pain free birth story. And I found one of a, from a friend in California who had a pain free birth to their second child.
And I, I said, if, if she can do it, if these women in the book can do it. I can do it. I'm going to figure it out. I'm going to crack the code. So then I just started really getting obsessed with physiological birth and how God designed our bodies to work. And I discovered it doesn't have to be painful.
There's nothing in our anatomy and our bodies that make it painful. It's really the fear. It's the fear, tension, pain cycle. And so the more I really dove into this brilliant design of the female body, the more I became obsessed with it. And the more I discovered, like, This is perfectly designed. Like, every detail is thought of.
Every facet of birth and labor are taken care of by the design when you trust the physiological process. And then in doing so, like, unfortunately, we mess with it. We meddle with it. We introduce fear. We introduce interventions. We try to control it. And that takes it down a very different path than what God originally designed and intended for birth to be.
And not that there aren't interventions that are needed or helpful at times. You know, I'm not someone that's like never get an epidural. You can't ever get an intervention or an IV. Like there's, sometimes we need help. There's no, nothing wrong with that. But like in the normal course of health and birth and physiology, our body is designed to do it all on its own.
And it pushes the baby out. It opens, it dilates, it expands, it contracts, it stretches. And Everything shifts and makes way for baby when we are trusting and surrendered to that process. And I just trust it. I didn't even understand all that I understand now. Like this was 11 years ago now. My daughter's 11.
So I, it has been a journey of learning and adding to that bank of knowledge and wisdom that we carry as women, that we carry in our bodies. But at the beginning, I, I just really became fascinated and obsessed with the physiology and I, Had this innate trust in me that said my body knows what to do It's created by an intelligent god.
And even though I don't understand every little piece of it and I might not You know, there there's still doubts and fears. I have there's still like well, maybe you know that you're holding the unknown Like you're believing for this incredible thing to happen a pain free birth. That's unheard of by most people and Yeah, you're still holding the unknown because you don't know what will happen in labor.
So it's a very faith walk It's a very like trust walk, you know And so I I held this uncertainty at the same time I had so much certainty that whatever happened I was protected. I was guided I was safe every step of the way Holy Spirit. I felt like he was guiding me I switched from a hospital to a home birth at 34 weeks I just knew in my body like this is what my body needs.
This is what my spirit needs to feel safe and comfortable. And I knew like whatever happened, whatever like Thing I had the faith and labor and however hard it was. I just knew like God was there with me and that I could trust that my body knew what to do and I could trust my body. So that was sort of my initiation into it.
And then learning along the way, I've had three pain free home births now. And each one was different. Each one. I learned something new. I learned how to trust and surrender with my first, I learned about, you know, the power of oxytocin and laughter and. , and really just fully like being engulfed in that with my second and she was asynclinic.
Like that was not an easy labor. That was a very hard labor and it probably would have been a cesarean in a hospital. She was stuck at 7 centimeters. She almost had a shoulder dystocia. She was 11 days overdue. Like, there were so many warning flags that made sense after the fact I had back labor, but I learned.
Positions and techniques to get through the back lever without any pain. And so I utilized so much physical support, and I also just had the most joy in that birth that I've had, like, in any other experience, even though it was like a 36 hour labor, it was through two nights, it was very intense, like, pressure and back labor.
False pushing like everything that you, you know, would normally set you up for lots of intervention happened. And yeah, it was the most joyful. It's like a party. We just celebrated. We ate. We laughed. I was cracking jokes and transition. Like, I really learned like, wow, this is the power. Of my mindset of my, like, how am I going?
What meaning am I going to associate to this? How do I want to walk this out? And then my third is a whole nother story of surrender and trust and intimacy and, and walking through some really personal, hard, personal things. And then coming out in really trusting again and opening and surrendering and the feminine.
And, you know, every, every step of the way I'm learning more with every client I work with, I'm learning more. And it really just became. A fire in my belly to share with women like that birth doesn't have to be what you're told what, what the world tells you. It doesn't have to be painful and scary and it can be so much better than that.
And whatever that means to you, like, it could mean pain free. It could mean empowered. It could mean you get your voice back. It could mean. Whatever that that that thing is that I just I just feel like we need to dismantle this lie that it has to be a certain way it has to be painful. And that's the biggest lie.
That's the most common. The most culturally accepted is that birth has to be painful. So that's what I chose to brand myself as is pain free birth, knowing that this is very painful. Triggering. This is very controversial. This is most women's experience of childbirth. But I also knew like, if I'm going to really address this lie, I have to be bold about it and speak it the truth and speak what I know.
And if that's just sharing my experience, then, then that's what I'll share. And it's become the experience now of thousands of women who've taken my courses and followed my Instagram and women like you, who found like a sliver of hope. In this online world, right? And someone cheerleading them to really just believe for the impossible, which is becoming very normal now, like in my community, it's incredibly normal.
And I get, I get sent stories every day of pain free birth stories, just like yours, and it shocks me because it took me months to find one story and now they're, they're all over the internet. And it's really just such a mindset shift. Like if you want to believe for it. And put in the work and prepare your heart and your mind and your body.
Anything's possible. And like, there's no one that can tell you, Oh, this isn't possible. This is what birth has to be. It's really, you're only limited by your belief and what you choose to accept as truth.
EVE: I love that so much. Thank you for sharing. And there's a couple of things that I really, really love that you shared.
A, I love how you shared that regardless of what you were going to go through in your first birth, because it's so true. You're like in this tension of this complete unknown when you've never given birth before and you hear, oh, it's scary. It's painful. It's the worst thing you'll ever go through. But hey, at least you get a baby on the other side.
And especially if you know who God is and that doesn't align with who, you know, God to be, because it's very, it's very true. Like, we know that God is good father. If you have been spending time in prayer, getting to know him as a person, it feels so contrary to, yeah, exactly. Like everything else that you know to be true about the world.
So it's when you've been told that, but then, you know, who God is, you're in this weird tension of this complete unknown and you still regardless. Of, you know, your faith in God and and your trust and belief in things going a certain way. You still don't know exactly how it's going to go because the end of the day birth is unpredictable and you sit in that tension and that's just that can be really hard to navigate.
But I. Love how you shared about like, regardless of what you were going to go through, you knew the character of God and you knew that he would be there with you in it because that's something that we can cling to always, right? Like, regardless of our circumstances. And I have shared that with women before.
It's not necessarily about like. It is so true that our culture tells this lie of birth has to be painful and scary and that it's a lie and it doesn't need to be dismantled. But at the same time, like you said, there's a place for intervention and it's not like having a cesarean in some situations is evil or whatever.
Regardless of the outcome, like, it's not necessarily about. Pain free birth is the only right outcome. It's about God can work in your birth story and God can teach you so many different things. And I also love that you shared about your second labor and birth and how it wasn't like, What some people would maybe think of when they picture the typical pain free birth, right?
Because you think, oh, well, some people have a pain free birth, but that might just not be for me. That's only for the women who have, like, these fast, couple hour labors, and they're laughing, and I love that you shared, well, that wasn't your experience in the second one, and you learned so much, and your baby, you know, you had all these things happening.
So I think that, There's just so many powerful testimonies and everything that you said you share this story about your first birth that I kind of want to dig into a little bit about how you were in labor and I think I've heard you say you were like in transition or something or very much so an active labor and it started to hurt.
But then when you learn to embrace. Your contractions and kind of like relax through them. That's when you really started to experience pain free birth So I kind of want to hear just a little bit more about like your experience of going from in the same labor From experiencing pain to not experiencing pain
KAREN: Yeah, and that was actually, like, very early labor, not transition, like, middle of the night, like, labor contraction started.
I knew there, this is, this is different than the prodromal labors. This is consistent. This is, it feels different. It feels like the real thing and I was timing them and, you know, I was just in bed and I, I kind of knew, like, this, this is the, I think this is real labor, but, It started to really hurt.
Like this is the very beginning. I know I'm in early labor and I'm like writhing in the bed trying to find a position that's not painful and, and kind of trying to get away from this uncomfortable, painful situation and, and it's not really working out and I'm like, okay, God, this is not what I've been.
Preparing for it and believing for it and I got like a little annoyed. I was like, okay Tell me what to do because it's not on his end. Like it's not his fault. He didn't Create my body defective. There's something i'm not getting like so I just said like prayed and said, okay Tell me what i'm missing.
What what do I need to do? Because this is not the agreement we had And I heard very clearly like In my spirit, embrace it. And I was like, well, I don't want to brace it. It hurts. Why would I embrace it? But then I realized my next contractions coming in like 30 seconds. I don't have time to argue with God right now.
Like just try it, Karen. I was like, okay, so I'm like, okay, embrace it. And I can feel the tightening of my uterus. I can feel the contractions start to come and it's getting stronger and stronger. I realized everything in me wanted to brace for it, wanted to tighten and like, Constrict because it was it was hurting and that's our that's our natural response to pain.
That's that's a survival instinct. We brace we tense. We pull our hand away. I was trying to get away from it, but you can't get away from something happening inside you like it's in you. And so rather than fighting it. I just like focused all of my energy and effort on relaxing all the muscles in my body and that started in my uterus, but it wasn't just my uterus.
It was my chest, my shoulders, my hands, my back, like, but especially where the, where I could feel the contraction and I really just leaned into it instead of trying to. Brace for it and pull away and that embracing it, like that really just welcoming it in my body and allowing it to get big, allowing it to be powerful.
It didn't hurt. And I thought it was like a little mini contraction that then when I first did it and I thought, well, that was one of those false contractions, you know, you get them and they're just like a little blip and then you get the next one and it's. Well, I thought, well, that must be. Just a false contraction because it didn't hurt.
So I'm like, okay, I'll try it again on the next one. And that one didn't hurt. And I'm like, wait a second. Did it really just shift from like really painful contractions? Like when women are like, oh, you're just reframing it. I'm like, no, I know what real pain feels like. I experienced it. It sucks.
And I also knew This is early labor. Like, if this is how much it hurts now, how much is it going to hurt when I'm in active labor and transition? Like, I was like freaking out, like, like, no way. We got to figure this out now, God. So, the next two didn't hurt, and the next one didn't hurt, the next one didn't hurt, and it was, I realized, like, oh my gosh, I think I figured this out.
I think I cracked the code and it took a ton of mental focus. I remember those contractions to like fully embrace this, this, this power in me. And then as it got further along into labor, I got, it became muscle memory. It was like, Oh, I'm just, I'm just experiencing this energy in my body. I'm experiencing all the intensity and all the pressure.
And when I say pain free birth, people get confused because they're like, what do you mean you didn't feel it? Like without drugs, right? I'm kind of like voodoo hypnosis thing. Like, what are you talking about? And I'm like, Oh no, no, no. I felt everything. I felt lots of pressure. I felt massive intensity. I could feel everything on my body, my full uterus pulling and stretching, but it didn't, it wasn't, it didn't produce pain.
It was just intense. energy and power, but I was welcoming it and one with it. I wasn't trying to run away from it. I wasn't fighting it. And that energetic shift in my body changed how I experienced it and literally shifted from pain to no pain in one contraction. And, and it got more and more intense as labor went on as they do, like they get stronger and they get longer.
But as I learned to breathe through them, as I learned to work with my body, I learned to trust my intuition. I learned to follow those instincts and know, I just intuitively knew what positions I needed to be in. I, I had freedom of movement. I was doing lots of like forward leaning upright positions to take the pressure off.
You know, the hip squeeze felt really good. Like I still used all those normal coping mechanisms, but it wasn't painful. And I just felt like, wow, this is working. And then it got to this point in active labor with my first, where I'm like, I think this is really, this is really working. And at that point, my midwife was like, Hey, should we check you?
And I had avoided it. I was like, I don't want to be checked because I don't want to be disappointed. I don't want to be like, Oh, you're only three centimeters. Cause I knew, I knew how much my mental state was affecting how I felt, how I experienced labor. And I didn't want to be. And I'm not discouraged and have that impact my labor pattern and make it more painful or make it take too long and stall.
So I'm really working on managing my state, and my emotions, and my thoughts, and my body. And how am I, everything was like this, this dance. This interconnected, like what's my body? What am I feeling? Am I scared? Am I nervous? How was that contraction? Oh, this is feeling good. And the more I was like mastering them with every contraction as they're getting stronger and stronger as the hours are going on throughout the day and labor, the contractions are getting stronger.
I'm getting more excited because I'm realizing I think I'm really in labor. Like, you know, you're in school and I, I realized, cause there's always What if it just gets, what if this is just still really early, you know, like what if this isn't the real thing?
EVE: I haven't experienced how hard it's going to get yet.
KAREN: Yeah,
EVE: exactly.
KAREN: Right. Cause this is still new to me
EVE: as
KAREN: a person.
EVE: That's what they tell you, right? Like in, yeah, just wait. As a labor and delivery nurse, I can't even tell you how many times I heard that from fellow nurses or doctors of like, well, you think you're in pain now, like you're only 5 centimeters.
Right.
KAREN: So I was definitely holding this like excitement at bay a little bit and really trying to manage my state. And also with, you know, this thought in the back of my head, like, what if it gets worse? You don't really know like where you're at. I haven't been checked. I know it's working right now, but I don't know what it's going to be.
When this happens or transition hits and so I waited until they felt really strong and I was really like I was happy. I was like enjoying this. I was like, I think this is working and I asked my midwife to check me and she said she was shocked when she checked me. Because she said you're like seven or eight centimeters.
Yes. And she did not realize because I was coping so well. It didn't look like I was at seven or eight centimeters because I'm, I'm just breathing and smiling and laughing and enjoying and, and making jokes in between and, and moving around and talking to people. And, you know, even my doulas and husband were like in the kitchen eating and I'm like in, in like active labor with like, and I realized I'm like on my hands and knees and I realized what I'm like.
It clicks. I'm like, it's working. This is, this is actually working. I'm not in pain. I am actually in labor. This is not just early labor. This is real labor, active labor, seven or eight centimeters. And this realization hits me and I'm like, it's working and I'm having fun. Like this is actually fun. This is not even.
Hard work. It's enjoyable, right? It's enjoyable. Like, I feel so happy and I'm having so much fun. Mm-Hmm, . And I have this whole argument in my own head about like how that's not possible. You're not supposed to have fun. You're in labor, , you know, like this. Like, you're just, you're just constantly hitting these like, cultural norms of like, no uhhuh.
Like, you can't even say that. Like, how are you having fun? You're, you're about to have a baby. And, and I'm like, you have to say it out loud. I'm thinking, or else you're not going to believe how good it was later. Like you'll talk yourself out of it somehow. I just knew like, if I don't say this and acknowledge this and speak it out, I'm going to doubt it, that it was really that good.
So I argue for a while with myself and realizing like, Oh, I'm going to feel embarrassed. Like I do this. I'm like, what are they going to think? Like, just like, who cares? Like, I am having fun. And I was like, Normal. Yes, the midwife and the doula, they're like, no, this isn't normal. I'm your mind. I don't like, they didn't really know how to explain it.
I start laughing and I realized now, like I had this burst of oxytocin so when you have a surge of oxytocin and endorphins, it makes you really happy.
It also blocks pain receptors. So I got even happier after that. I got even more excited. I started laughing. I started, I started laughing. Just like, and I was still having really strong contractions. Like, it's like you can have both hands. Like if you watch a video of me and I have videos, I'm like breathing.
I am moaning. I am like, I'm in it. It looks like a normal birth. You wouldn't know I'm not in pain. And then I come out of it and I'm like, Oh, that was the big one.
EVE: Like intensity does not equal pain. And I think that's something in our culture. That's just so like, It is so hard to understand for people like just because something is big and intense doesn't mean that it's painful and you're right.
You can have both and during labor.
KAREN: Yeah, yeah. And I could flow from one to the next. And it was like I was flowing in between a really deep state. Like, you know, I talk about altered states of consciousness and in my e course and how the labor physiology is actually designed to take us into these deep.
States where our brainwaves slow down and our thinking slows down and we are internal and that's required for birth That's not just like a supernatural like new age thing that happens It's actually scientifically proven that in labor women do this when they're not medicated They go into these altered states and I could feel myself go in And experience this intensity and be one in my body And I could feel the peace of God around me.
And the, and the, and then it opened my eyes and feel all this love and support and see everyone around me serving me and putting a washcloth on me or pouring water on my back and were saying nice things to me, but I, at no point did I ever feel like I can't handle this or this is too intense. And I had, I remember having a few contractions that were like really strong, probably like, I actually remember one point praying and being like, okay, God, what's next, like, I'm ready.
And then a massive surge hit me. And I was like in that one I would say was painful. It was I was almost not prepared for it I'm like, wow that like took my breath away and it made me realize okay It was like I got what I prayed for kind of like yeah what you prayed for I also realized like something shifted.
It was like I was like, oh, okay, you're ready next It's like you just want a little bit more intensity. Wow. All right, here we go. And I knew like it's time to get the tub. Like it was just intuition. And I was like, okay, this position is no longer serving me. I'm getting in the tub. And I chose not to associate fear with anything because I knew.
if I align with that and agree with that. It's only going to downward spiral me so I could get really scared and associated meaning to that contraction that says, oh, now they're all going to be really painful. Now you're now you can't handle it. Or I could say, no, it's just a message. It's telling me. This position is not working at this time anymore.
It worked for you in the past, now you need to change. You need to change your strategy, your approach, your position, your mindset, your belief, your, your emotional state. You need to think something different. So every time I would just be the observer and ask my body, okay, What is the shift that needs to happen and it wasn't even a mental thing.
It was just an intuitive thing. Like, so, okay, I'm going to go in the tub now. That's the next phase. It's it's ramping up. I need that relief that support of that warm water. To get in that tub and feel that, you know, to have, and it immediately took any pain away getting in that water. So I'm like, okay, here, this is, and it was, it was like heaven.
I remember getting in and feeling like, man, this is better than an epidural. Like I, this is my epidural. I'm, I am good. Like that warm water just relaxed every muscle in my body and I'm able to then experience these really strong surges and stay tuned in and connected. And so pushing I learned how to push more like really physiologically by my third.
I remember that feeling those pushing surges where I learned from other research I'd done. That I don't have to push, that your body does it all on its own, that you don't have to hold your breath and force your baby out. And so I really took that to heart. And when I felt those surges, my body just started bearing down and pushing all on its own.
And they were so intense. I remember getting a little scared. I was like, wow, this, this kind of hurts. I hope I don't have to do too much, too much of this. Cause it was so intense. And then, like, I remember learning, like, by my third, like, oh, there's a whole other way you can push using breath, using, you know, a whole different approach that takes even that, that pain, that, that intensity away in a big way.
It's still intense, but it's like you're channeling that power in a very specific place in your body in order to open. And then your uterus just pushes and you don't, it's not like I had to, Hold all that energy. It's like I could direct it instead of trying to withstand it because it was so powerful. So lots of lessons along the way, lots of trial and error, lots of learning, lots of research, lots of, you know, really just taking what I experienced and then sharing that with other women and encouraging them that this is possible.
And then I would start seeing. Other women have these experiences and I realized, oh this, this isn't just me, this isn't just, that's just like a weird flu case study, like this is actually as normal and as physiological as birth gets. And realizing like I can actually teach women how to do this very effectively and they can learn, they can learn these skills, they can learn the mindset, they can learn The breathing techniques, learn how to push and have I've had women with come to me with, you know, traumatic birth, fourth degree tears, you know, cesareans, like birth trauma, completely feeling disempowered in their neighbors and feeling broken in their body.
And like, how could I ever have a different experience? And just through working with me or taking my course or coaching, they have, you know, Radically completely different birth experiences, birthing, you know, 11 pound babies naturally with, with two pushes or, you know, just pain free births at home, like all different kinds of labors and the experience of working with women over the, over the last 10 years or so I, I kind of treated it like this is all research, like, I'm just going to, Because you can have your own experience.
You can have three of your own experiences or ten of your own experiences. It doesn't mean you really understand all there is to know. There's so much to understand about birth. And there's so many unique situations. And everything for me was just guided by this really, like, obsession or curiosity, I would probably call it one of those two things.
Like, I want to understand why some women have a really hard time, why some women get stuck. I want to know why some women stall. I want to know why some women have three hour labors and some have 30 hour labors like me, why some are pain free, what really causes pain, like all the different situations and how the physiology is at play behind the scenes and all of them.
And, you know, you have your external forces that are impacting birth and. They can have a big influence on your labor and create fear or trust, and then you've got your internal physiology working. And those two things really determine how labor unfolds. So it became a passion of mine to help women and see I see women really take, take back their power and ownership of their birth and their bodies through through childbirth.
And so,
EVE: yeah, it's so cool. Thank you. There's a couple of things. I actually really want to get into some of like that physiology and how in a practical sense, this kind of works because I think for people it's just so mind blowing. So I want to talk a little bit about X. I think it's so true that the more you understand how like.
Flawlessly God designed the birth process, the more you can lean into it and the less you can fear it really. And I think that that was such a turning point for me also was like understanding the hormonal cascade that happens and just how like every part of this process is literally taken care of.
There's something so incredible and divine behind all of it that once you understand it, it's hard to even question like, It's one of those things for me that I'm like, of course, there is a creator and he's good because look at how this is. But I also really want to touch on like something.
I think that's just so powerful. You mentioned is when you were in early labor, experiencing those contractions that you said were painful and you heard the Lord say to embrace it and you were like, I don't want to embrace it. Right. My natural state and our human nature wants to. Kind of shy away from anything painful.
And I think there's such a beautiful lesson in that beyond even just like having it be applied to birth like as women, it's so in our nature and the way that God designed us to be receptive and like receive what he has for us with open hands. And sometimes those things that he has for us, they're not.
What we would like them to be right. And it can feel like intense or painful in our life, like just situations we go through in our life. But it's like, it can take on this character of sweetness. When we walk through those things with the Lord and really like embrace whatever it is that he has for us.
Even if it's intense, even if like, we want to shy away from it. It's just so much of like what makes us feminine and how God designed us as women. You said that you've been a doula for like 10 years and your daughter's 11.
So was your first birth the experience that catapulted you into like learning about this and into becoming a doula?
KAREN: Yeah, it was. I, I hadn't. Really considered it before. And after this experience, I, I thought, wow, it's, it really lit a fire in me to share with other women, like that. You've been lied to the birth can be so much better.
And my doula at the time who was with me for that birth encouraged me to take a doula training. And so I signed up for that. I think my daughter was like three or four months old at the time that I, that I took the doula training and, and And became certified and then started serving women in labor and just supporting other women, like I said, just kind of understanding birth and all the things we bring with us into, into birth and ever how every woman is so different.
Every birth is different. So it was just invaluable to, like, to really sit there with women and be able to be influenced. Their birth experience in a way because I did a lot of work coaching with them in advance knowing That whatever you're bringing with you into that labor is really going to determine how you experience it And I could I could feel that energetic state, you know with every woman I worked with I could I was in, I remember being in a class, even learning this as I was pregnant the first time.
And I could tell just in talking with pregnant women, like how much fear they were carrying or what their mindset was about birth. And I could almost predict like who's going to end up with a cesarean or medicalized birth and who would have natural births just based on how they talked about birth and their, or their body or their baby.
Like it was just very evident to me, like yeah. There are certain mindsets and beliefs that lead to certain outcomes and that's not to say like, oh, it's your fault you had a cesarean or anything like that. I just could feel the energy and how fear would lead to all these unwanted outcomes. All this, this constriction in our body and the need for help, the need for someone to rescue us, the need to You know, have assistance or to the control, like if you were controlling every aspect of your pregnancy and your birth that showed up in labor, you know, and so working with women throughout all of these very.
You know, subtle internal belief systems and states was really gave me more and more confidence to work with anyone. And now I feel like it's, it created so much confidence in me. I'm trust in the physiology. To know that, like, it doesn't matter what you present to me. I can work with you. I can get you from point A to point B.
Like, we can, we can talk, we can dissect your fears. We can dissect your birth. We can dissect your trauma. And it's nothing that God can't handle. It's nothing that you can't unravel. It's nothing that you can't overcome. Like, you get to make the choice along the way and shift. And you get to choose. Am I going to hold on to fear and control?
Or am I going to surrender? And you mentioned the feminine. Like, that it is such a surrender. And I found over and over again. That that is, that is so true, like, it is the most feminine thing we'll ever do. It is all from feminine energy. And as we try to control it, we try to protect ourself. We try to, you know, preserve some semblance of dignity or control or avoiding the pain of the hardness, what's hard about labor, because it is hard, it is intense.
And the more we try to run away from that, the harder it gets. And yet the feminine, it's like this invitation. To surrender and I believe that's why birth is a sacred rite of passage for women to enter motherhood Like we don't go through it for nothing Is this designed as this this portal this rite of passage that women go through?
And that intensity molds us into being mothers. It prepares us for motherhood because you can't go into motherhood clenching onto everything, trying to control, trying to like manufacture and micromanage motherhood, like it is a mess. Motherhood is a hot mess. It is messy. It is poopy diapers. It is screaming kids.
Like if you try to control it, you're going to go crazy. And we do in this culture, trying to like, Be the ones to, to hold tight to that certainty. And I've just found that like, that is the great surrender is it, it happens in labor. And if you don't do it in labor, it will test you after birth. It will test you in the postpartum.
It will test you in toddlerhood. It will test you. And at some point in motherhood, That is the call. It is surrender. It is laying down our life. It is becoming someone that is selfless and sacrificing our life for the ones we love. And we go through that fire. Like, there's the literal ring of fire. Like, there's so many analogies we could come up with.
But, there's, you, you, you, we walk through this hardship, but it, the thing is, it doesn't have to be suffering. It is hard. It is intense. There is, it is a, there's a fire, there's a death to self and a rebirth as a mother. And there's all those things. And at the same time, it can be incredibly joyful. It can be ecstatic.
Even like I had, I can say I experienced ecstasy, like true bliss and ecstasy, active labor in transition. And I think that, that feeling was far more addictive than. The fact that I wasn't in pain because we all we all obsess about our fears That's more of a motivator for many of us to like avoid the fear of pain And yet the joy before you is even greater than that like the intense feeling of empowerment and joy and bliss in the middle of this intensity.
It's like nothing, it's better than drugs. It's better. It is better than drugs. Like chemically speaking, rain, the female brain releases drugs that are greater than if you took cocaine, like when you sort of measure the serotonin and the dopamine being released, it's far surpasses that. And we think it's just after the baby comes out.
It's not, it's in labor. If you know how to release it. It's those hormones and natural drugs and opiates that your brain is designed to release in labor. But most of us are just so scared and so tense that, and in an environment of fear that we never get that hit. We never get that rush of drugs, natural drugs, like I'm talking hormones and opiates right now.
I'm not saying take drugs. You know what I'm talking about, but we don't get that because we suppress it with fear. And we start with control and the medical industry and the, and the environments we birth in are controlling us and managing us. And so we buy into their fear. We give our power away, but everything about birth is trust and surrender.
And fully embracing this call into the motherhood and how ecstatic it can be in the middle of intensity. And it can even be painful and joyful at the same time. Like there were surges that I'm like, wow, that, that hurt. And yet I was so happy. It was like, okay, let's do the next thing. Let's change. Let's try this.
It's like, when we just flow with it, that's the feminine we're flowing. We don't have to be rigid, you know? And everyone wants to analyze it so much. Like, how do we define it? How do we, how do we, Everything about birth is measuring, charting, dilating, you know, how, what number are you at? Like, who cares?
Yeah, that's not how nature works. No, nature doesn't work that way. Like the rose doesn't bloom like, okay, four centimeters, five centimeters, six centimeters. Right. Open. And you
EVE: just observe its beauty.
KAREN: Yes. Yes, exactly. It's, it's beautiful. It's, it's powerful. And so, It's such a different and that's how I teach birth is from this very holistic embodied perspective, not a medicalized stages of labor perspective and dilation perspective.
And here's where now you're in this stage. Now you're in that stage. Like, birth is not linear. And when we try to make it fit inside this box, we have as a culture. To create the semblance of control and management because it's scary and unknown and we like to control things and we don't like to be out of control, especially in a masculine dominated obstetrical maternal, you know, culture.
They like to manage things, but labor is not. That labor is feminine, and it's raging water, and it's fire, and it's intensity, and it's highs and lows, and it's super intense surges, and surrender, and screaming, and blood, and like, and deep groans, and it's like intensity, and yet it's so beautiful, and powerful, and can be ecstatic, and And, you know, roaring, I mean, it could be whatever, it's so many things and to paint just one picture is like, you know, when, if we can detach our, our need for that certain certainty of this is the outcome I want and begin to hold space for.
What birth could be and what the desire is in each woman's heart for their birth. Like what environment are you leaning into? And I would even lean into God for every labor and ask him like, what is this birth about? Cause each one of mine were different. Each one of mine had a different energy and different, a different focus, a different breakthrough that I got personally from it.
So we can, we can hold labor as like this beautiful, spiritual, sacred, you know, transformation. It does transform us from the inside out. When we. Are open to that when we allow for that, and there's so much resistance to that, though, because of the fear of pain, but if we can work through those fears, and that's a big part of what I work with women in doing through my courses and my work is really working through those fears, because once we can release them, then you're open to the transformation.
Then you get to design your birth, and you get to design what you want, and not in a controlling way, but in a, I am open to this, and I am. Going to actually call forth, like, and, and pray for what I believe this could be for me. And we get to partner with heaven in walking out this motherhood journey. And what, what, what better way than to partner with God to raise our kids, to birth our kids, to raise our kids, to trust God for our families, to trust him in, in the hard, hard things in conception, in birth, childbirth, in In raising kids and breastfeeding like what better way than to lean into that and knowing that we have what it takes and he created us to do this.
He created us capable to do this with him and we're not alone. We're not broken. We're not incompetent. Like there's so there's so much glory in motherhood and Unfortunately, when a culture that doesn't honor it, but when we start honoring it and talking differently about it, like I talk very differently about birth than most people.
I talk very differently about even the joy of motherhood and how, like, I don't feel like I need to complain. Yes, it's hard, but there is a joy set before me. There is. There's a different mindset and whatever mindset I choose is going to make something harder or easier because I'm a big advocate of like, why make it harder than it needs to be.
EVE: Yeah, and I think when you were talking about birth being fire, I, but it's still being like, it can be. Hard and good at the same time. It just reminds me, like we are called to become perfect as our heavenly father is perfect. Right. And that fire, like that is the person of the Holy spirit refining us to become holy and to become more like him.
And we have to walk through hard things sometimes and to be pruned. And that's not a comfortable feeling to like, let the Holy spirit fire, Brunus of all that is like worldly and selfish in us so that we can become more like God, but at the same time there is glory like The lord desires that for us because he does it desires for us to share in his glory And that's such a powerful feeling like there would be no resurrection Right if jesus did not Carry his cross and then die on it for us.
Like he redeemed humanity and there's such a beautiful, there's just so much to unpack here and so many lessons that could be learned and gleaned from this. And it hurts my heart that it's a narrative that has really like shifted culturally and been stolen, honestly, from so many women. Like it's something that a lot of women don't get to experience or walk through.
Yeah, yeah,
KAREN: me too. I agree. And it's that's my mission really is to reach women with this message so that they know they don't have to have this stolen from them. They don't have to be. You know Manage, they don't have to be fear monger. They can choose. This is the kind of birth I want whatever that is Whether that's a hospital birth a home birth whether it'll be a midwife medicated not medicated Like it's not my choice to make but like i'm just gonna show you what's possible And most women when given the option and when they see what's possible They often choose like unmedicated the main thing holding women back from that kind of birth experience is the fear of the pain The fear of like the what ifs the tearing that it's gonna ruin my body But when you share how it's all designed a lot of women overcome those fears and then go, you know what?
This is actually what I want They feel safer in other environments they feel safer with other providers they feel some women's You end up wanting one thing and end up needing an epidural or medicine medication and there's no shame in any of it. I just feel like you all, every woman deserves the chance.
Every woman deserves a choice to do herself what she wants out of it and not to be told, here's what it is. Here's what it has to be because that's, that's a lie we've been conditioned with. And it's a very cultural thing. Like the fear of a painful childbirth is a very cultural belief, and not every culture even carries it.
There's cultures in other countries, in other, you know, there's in Japan and in Africa, like, there are cultures that don't actually inherently believe birth has to be painful, and their outcomes are very different. Like they, they have a different, you know, a different perspective on birth, and they're, Their maternity rates, their, all of their outcomes reflect the cultural mindset and how they approach birth.
And so when we can change the culture, and that's my goal is I'm, I'm here to shift the culture of birth globally from like fearful to empowered, and we can see it differently. We empowered women differently. We treat women differently in labor. We, we give them options. We don't have to control with fear.
Right, so it's, it's, that is, that is the whole mission of Pain Free Birth, but you nailed it on the
EVE: head. And it happens one woman in one story at a time, right? Like, that is what shapes our society. And it's also as discouraging as it can be sometimes to look at the cultural narrative that we've been taught, and the medical model that currently, like, can be very disempowering to women.
I also agree with you that there's starting to be the shift in this awareness that women are coming to understand. It doesn't have to be like this for me. And I can choose more and demand more. And I pray for a day where with one woman at a time, we see women. Yeah, really. I love that phrase taking back their power and, and You know, the birth experience as there's like something that they have ownership over.
Obviously with God, God really has ownership over the birth experience, but and that that culture will shift here too. So, yeah, thank you so much. This was. A really beautiful discussion, I had so many like random practical questions and it took a totally different time than I thought it would, but in like the most beautiful and amazing way.
And I'm so glad that I had the chance to have this conversation with you truly like it was such an honor for me. Where can people find more about you if they want to work with you or take your course?
KAREN: Yeah well you can find me on Instagram at painfreebirth. So you can just look me up there I'm always active on there and you can find out more information about my courses at painfreebirth.
com So I made it really easy for everybody to remember Click on courses, you'll see I have the the pain free birth e course, which is my Like, most popular course that women take, thousands of women now have gone through this, we just get testimonials every day. It's the full mindset shift, the full, all the techniques, all the breathing, all the, every stage, you know, how to walk through it and experience pain for both, even in a hospital.
And then I've got a postpartum course out there for how to have a postpartum and a blissful postpartum because just like there's, you know, a hormonal physiology to childbirth. There's a hormonal physiology in the postpartum season as well. And we don't realize that we don't talk about it as much. So we can avoid postpartum depression.
We can support breastfeeding. There's so many things we can do when we understand the physiology happening underneath, even in the postpartum and your birth experience obviously plays a big role in that too. And Setting those hormones up to be at peak levels. So then I have a birth partner bootcamp, which is all for the partners to prepare to support a physiological birth.
If, if you desire and your partner desires to really be a part of that experience and really support that and be present for that, I have like a full tutorial on positions and how to advocate and lots of, lots of tools. You know, for your partner to, to understand and, and really take that ownership too, of, of this, you're doing this together.
Like, even though the woman's doing all the hard work, the man, man can really, the partners can really support and step up and, and make it an incredible experience too, and, and really supporting in masculine energy. And that's, I talk a lot about those energetics of the feminine and the masculine, how those even play out in labor.
And there's a healing birth trauma course for anyone who feels like I really had a horrible birth and I need to offload this trauma first. I need to get this nervous system out of my body. It's a somatic thing. It feels heavy. Like, there's real tangible, like, we can feel these things in our bodies and there's healing and shifts that need to happen.
You know, for some of you before you even take on and go down that journey with pain free birth and learning those tools. So I created that course specifically for women. Like, I know you share and that's a big passion of yours to Eve is helping women avoid a lot of the abuses in the medical industry.
And unfortunately, it's left women traumatized and feeling. Less than and broken and we've we've been buying into those lies of my body's broken. It didn't know what to do. My hips are too small and I'll never have a natural birth or I couldn't handle the pain like all of those. Narratives, you know, only get reinforced when we have a traumatic birth experience.
And so that's a little mini course designed just to help women release that trauma because we don't want to carry it with us into the next experience. So all that is on my website. I've got freebies on there too. And feel free to reach out on Instagram. I love talking to women on Instagram and love hearing me your birth stories.
I love supporting every aspect of this. motherhood journey. So I'd love to, to hear from you guys and reach out with any questions you have.
EVE: So awesome, Karen. Well, thank you so much again. This was such a pleasure and I'm excited to get back to you when I have this little nugget at the end of the summer and tell you how it went.
It's so encouraging to hear that you had this. three very different, but all pain free birth experiences. Cause it's weird when you've had one and you're like, is this really, like, you still go through those mental gymnastics? Right? You're like, wait, is this possible for me twice? Yeah.
KAREN: Is this number two or three for you?
EVE: Two. Yeah.
KAREN: Oh, I can't wait to hear about it. I'm sure it'll be completely different and challenge you in completely different ways and be just as beautiful. In fact, I feel like with every one of my births, it feels like it got better and better and they were unique and amazing in their own way.
And yet it was also like, Oh my gosh, I could just keep having babies because it's just good. Better and better.
EVE: Yeah, I'm so excited. I really feel like the Lord has been speaking like the words slow and rest over this birth, which is interesting because my first was five hours. So I'm like curious to know how that's going to come to life.
KAREN: I love it when you get like, I love getting words for my birth. They are so different. And then they manifest in ways that you're like, Oh, that's what God meant. No wonder. And that's so
EVE: like
KAREN: God, right? Oh, I can't wait to hear about it.
