00:05
Hi friends, welcome to the Pain Free Birth podcast. I'm your host, Karen Welton, a certified doula childbirth educator and mother of three. In this space, we'll hear positive, supernatural, and yes, even pain free birth stories from women just like you. We'll explore the deeply spiritual side of childbirth and how God designed women's bodies brilliantly for birth. Let's get started.
00:32
Welcome back to the show, mamas. Today I have the pleasure of interviewing Jessica Gray. She is the woman behind the breech Birth account on Instagram. And she has had five vaginal breech Births, which we think may be a world record, which is absolutely amazing. She's had six kids and five vaginal breech Births. And so welcome to the show, Jessica. I'm so excited. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to chat. So.
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Tell me about this. How is this possible that you've had five breech births? Yeah, this is an excellent question. I think that's the first question people usually ask is, why is this happening to you? How is this happening? And actually that hits a broader question of why does breech even happen? And what I've learned is, and what is in my case, is I have a uterine anomaly. So my uterus is shaped like a heart. So the second...
01:28
at the top, the divot of the heart. Once my babies get into position at around 32 weeks and they just begin to grow, grow, grow from there, they can't slip past that septum. So people who don't have that uterine anomaly, their babies can spin. Hence spinning babies, you probably heard a lot about people spinning their breech babies, right? My babies don't spin. So once they get cozy, they remain there for the rest of the time. And...
01:57
That's how I birth my baby's breech because they get into breech position for my heart-shaped uterus. Yeah, I had a client that delivered breech with uterine, it was called Didelphus. I may be saying that wrong. What was yours, the technical term for yours? Mine is bicornet. Bicornet. Okay. Yeah, uterine bicornet uterus. There's lots of variations to the uterus and the shape of the uterus. She actually, my client actually had two uteruses because hers
02:27
never formed together. So she thinks that she's had some babies with one uterus and others with the other one. Amazing. Even though she had a cesarean with one of her babies, technically because she got pregnant in the other uterus, she thinks it's technically not a VBAC because we're birthing with uterus that doesn't have the intrauterine. So like, yeah, it's kind of like, wait, this is my head is spinning now. Like it's just, it's fascinating though that like even with
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And the uterus are smaller, so she tends to go a little earlier. But again, hers don't have the room because of the smaller size to flip down, down, word or head down, I should say. So I think it's just, I mean, that whole topic is fascinating along. We could go on a rant about that, but it does make sense. And I think it's interesting too, because there are logical reasons, right? That babies get in the position they're in, but we don't have like a video, like a microscope into the womb and a scan can only go so far to seem like what's going on in there.
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ultrasound, I should say. So, so when you had your first, was that like a normal birth? And she was head down? And you're only had down one, right? Yeah. So she was head down. And my water did break early. I my water broke at 35 and one, I think there's potential like, because of the shape of my uterus that that played into the factor came a little early. But she was my head down baby.
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and it was just textbook and it was in a hospital. Everything went great. Other than being a little early, everything was just textbooks. Now what happened with your second and subsequent births that were all a breech? How did you handle that? Yeah, so I'm reading a book called The breech Book and it's gonna be the ultimate guide for having a safe and successful breech baby because I think from a mom's perspective,
04:22
someone who's had it, not just the provider perspective of how to do it, but also the mom's perspective of how to actually birth them. And I get into this in my book of how I even found out. And what happened was I had had my baby and she was about a year old, almost a year old, and I began to bleed. And I was found out I was eight weeks pregnant. And I'm bleeding, I'm not at home. We lived in a different country. And I...
04:51
called the nurse on call, their 24 seven nurse Caroline. And the guy says, have you been having shoulder pain? Way out of left field that question was for me. I'm like, what does that have to do with anything? Yeah, so I'm like, actually, now they think about it. Yes, I've been having pain in my left shoulder. He's like, I think this is an ectopic pregnancy. You need to get in. So I fly home to my country, go straight to emerge.
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get to a radiology ultrasound scan, and they're looking and there's just nothing. And it was an intrauterine death. But while I'm laying there on the cold sterile examination table, the ultrasound tech says to me, did you know that your uterus is bicornet and it's shaped like a heart? So this is how I found out, right? Here I am and there's death in the room.
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at the same time, I'm finding out the most beautiful thing that my place for my babies is shaped in the shape of a heart. So next baby, not long after that, I'm about 37 weeks and my OB says, guess what your baby's breached. He's bummed down and it looks like he's staying that way because of the bicornodendron. Yeah, and what was his recommendation?
06:19
So amazingly, he had been trained in breech in Sweden and Africa. So he was head of obstetrics at the hospital that I was under care for. And he said, so your baby's breached. So like, what do you wanna do with that? And I'm sitting there in the room thinking like, okay, what am I supposed to do with that information, right? Gracefully, this man had been
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trained in this. So I just looked at him and said, well, can I do it? I think I can do it. Can I still deliver my baby? Is the plan still to go ahead? And he said to me, if you believe you can do it, I'm comfortable doing it. So let's move forward with it. Yay, that makes my heart so happy to hear. You have no idea that's so beautiful that a doctor would say something like that to a pregnant mom because it's usually the opposite that happens as you probably are well aware.
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that the woman says, well, can I do it? Or what are my options? And they go, oh, it's so risky. It's so dangerous. And immediately whatever faith she had is just like squashed. So. Yeah. And it's like, let's do a C-section. Let's try to do an ECV. Let's try to get this baby in optimal position. You have to go, you have to spin your baby. You have to do moxibustion. You have to do, go get chiropractic, which all those things are fine. It's good. It's good to try to spin your baby. If you are comfortable wanting to spin your baby and your baby can spin.
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I'm not against spending your baby, go for it. But it gets overwhelming, right? Cause you're at the point in your pregnancy often. Yes. Often when these women are finding out, It's already pretty late. Yeah, and they're where they should be starting to think about birth and get into, you know, you teach this, the mindset of relaxation and preparing for the mindset of birth. And all of a sudden your mind has been totally thrown off in this new track, crazy. Hijacked and now you're stressed out.
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and in this like mode of, I gotta fix this, there's a problem, I have to fix it, there's something wrong. It creates so much stress in the final weeks of pregnancy. I totally agree and I've seen it happen and it's sad because it doesn't need to be an emergency. If you're surrounded by providers like your doctor was who is supportive of no matter what happens, we can make this, I'm confident you can do it. If you believe you can do it, you know, like that's what a beautiful gift. So how does that- You're so right.
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Yeah, how did that labor go? Did you and did you trial those things? Like as that mom, this was your first breech? What were you like, okay, gotta do everything? Or were you just like, well, we'll give it a shot. But you know what, I either way, it's gonna be okay. Yeah, I just want to say you said something really important. You said the word emergency. And you also said breech is not a problem. And where it's presented as a problem. And I agree. My motto is breech is not a problem. And I will answer your question. I just wanted to interject. I'm
09:13
a trained emergency medical technician. And so I've been in these emergency scenarios where it's hectic, adrenaline's running. It is a true emergency and breech isn't that way. I've also experienced five times where for me, it wasn't emergent. It was exciting and it was beautiful and it was easy and it was fun and there was a good outcome. So I know all births can have
09:43
crazy outcomes sometimes, but yeah, anyway. I think that's a really amazing, just interject on your interjection. It was, that's such a good point because we can make almost any birth an emergency that doesn't need to be. Even normal physiological head down breech babies are treated like an emergency in many cases with the care team and the provider and the, oh my gosh, call the doctor. You know, get her on her back, get her on her bed. And you see this scene played out.
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we have this picture of birth as an emergency and even more so for breech birth. And if your provider thinks, oh, that's, they weren't expecting it or, you know, they're just not used to it, they're not comfortable with it. So that becomes a very scary situation, you know, whether you're, they're trying to push you toward a cesarean or whether you're in the hospital delivering and it can feel scary. But I love your perspective that, hey, I've seen the true emergencies and I've also done this. And there's nothing like that.
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they don't have to be like that. So I think that's really important to say. Yeah, so in my training for my NR EMT, there was a pediatrics section on it. And my instructor stood up and he's like, let's talk about breech birth this one day. He's like, this is how you're gonna handle breech birth in the field when you arrive at a woman's house and she's panicking because she's gonna have a breech, maybe this is what you have to do. And I just slowly raise my hand.
11:10
Excuse me. I just wanted to say something because it was, let's treat it as emergency. So my point there is that is still how it's being trained. Yes. Even to medical technicians and the emergency technicians and first responders, it's still being trained as an emergency. So my first bridge baby, he is pretty cool because they had just reversed the law in southern Ontario where I was living in Canada.
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it had been illegal to have a vaginal breech baby in the hospital setting for actually 15 years. And this was the first year. Yeah. In a hospital setting, it was illegal. Yeah, yeah, it was immediate C-section. No questions asked. Wow. Yeah, so he was the first baby. So what comes with that is, since he was the first baby in 15 years, imagine you walk into a labor and delivery ward
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a lot of nurses aren't going to have been 15 years in that ward. And the ones- You're telling me your baby was the first breech baby born in Canada in 15 years, like in the whole country or like at that hospital? At that hospital in Southern Ontario. So in my province, it had been illegal for 15 years. Wow. Okay, so yeah. So they were like not used to this. No, so none of them had seen, right? None of the nurses had ever seen a vaginal breech baby.
12:37
because for their careers, most of them hadn't been there for 15 years. The most senior nurse had been, and she still hadn't seen a vaginal breech baby. She'd been there about 15 years. So yeah, this was gonna be an anomaly. And my OB, he was about to leave on vacation, and the only other obstetrician on call is immediate C-section for breech. So he was like, we need to get you in before I leave.
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And he's like, I want to curate the right team around you of nurses and technicians and everybody on hands who will support him, right? So he picked the day and he said, come in this day, we'll get things going and we'll see what happens. So I went in that day, we got things going and this is like 8.40 and I'm sitting around.
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No labor starting bouncing on the ball. So you keep so you're getting an induction and you're having like induction drugs. So he broke my water. Okay. He broke my water, which I know is like, don't break anybody's water. But this was the circumstance at that time. Yeah, no, it makes sense. This is how it was going down. So he broke my water sitting around waiting for the river to start sitting around for two hours, nothing's happening. So it's a beautiful July day me and my husband are like, let's go walk. Let's go walk the emergency.
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parking lot has a big hill. Let's just go walk up and down the hill. So we go out about 10.30, we start walking and then I'm like, oh, okay. Contraction, contraction. How far along are you at this point? Yeah, so I was a week from my due date. Okay, so 39 weeks. Yeah. So start walking, do about two loops and I'm thinking, oh wow, something's going on now. I'm feeling something. Finally, I'm about 12.
14:30
I'm like, you know what, maybe we should go inside. Maybe we should just get inside and I should get back on the ball. We go inside and get back on the ball and immediately I feel my baby wants to come out. I'm like ready to push. It has been, you know, hardly an hour and a half and I'm ready, I'm ready. And so I get on the bed and I'm like.
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I'm like, I think I need to push. My husband goes to the nurse's break room and he knocks on the door and he's like, hi, I think Jessica needs to push. And they're like, no, she doesn't. She just had her water broken not that long ago. She's fine. He's like, maybe she just come see. She's just saying that. So he's thinking like, I know it's serious, right? So they come into the room and they're like, the nurse says, get on the bed, like open your legs up.
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She's thinking nothing's gonna happen. My doctor is up in the OR doing a C-section. I sit back, she's like, there's a bomb, there's a bomb. Panic, Karen full panic. The exact situation you're trying to avoid. Panic ensues. So now she's speaking, nurses are running. They had a bunch of med students who kind of wanted to see what was going on. Now med students come into the room.
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nurses freaking, there's three or four of them, two med students and they can't get a hold of him in the OR, okay? And so they're like, don't push, don't push, which here I am like, how do I not push? How do I, just tell me what to do, I'll do whatever you say, but how do I not push some dude breathing and try not to push? They're on the phone to the OR and my nurse is like swearing up a blue streak, tell them to get the down here now. And finally,
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He leaves his med student who was with him to sew up. Like trial by fire. I really hope that sweet lady who was having that C-section, I hope she has the perfect scar. She was just, she was laughing. He comes down and as soon as he comes into the room, it was like peace walked into the room. Oh, cause before he came down, they ended up calling the emergency room doctor cause they're like, she's gonna have it. She's gonna have this baby.
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They call the emergency room doctor. He walks in one door, looks at me, walks right out. I'm like, oh, there he goes. He's standing out. Oh, God. He's like, nope, I'm not touching this. Oh my gosh. She's like, there's no chance. Yeah. So it is surreal when you are sitting in the bed, which I've never birthed a baby laying on my back after that, but sitting in a bed and you're looking and everyone's staring at you.
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like you have an alien that's about to come out. It is a wild scenario. So the people who really feel like shocked and I understand, I understand. So he came down to the room and when he walked in, he brought peace and he was wearing, he was wearing kind of like an apron that was tied around, it was like a sheet apron that was tied around his waist and he came right in and he tucked it up under me. So there was almost a trampoline.
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a tight sheet between me and him. And he just looked at me and said, push, do what you're gonna do. Wow. And his philosophy was hands off reach. So he just watched and he just kept the sheet buoyant. And as my baby came out, he was caught on the sheet. So he didn't touch your baby at all coming out. Right. Oh my gosh. Amazing. Yeah. I love this story so much. Like we're just gonna talk a little.
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She trampoline under your butt and then you're gonna do all the work. Your body knows what to do. I don't even have to intervene. Like this, who is this magical doctor? I know, I know. He's incredible. And then as soon as my baby was born, my doctor made sure he was fine. And then he went over to the nurses on the side of the room and he had a little clinic with him. They were like, what just happened? And he said, this is what happened. And he was going through it with them. And it was this really cool moment of watching.
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people experience it for the first time as I was experiencing it for the first time. Wow. And did he put the baby right on your chest or did they clamp and take the baby away? They took the baby away and over to the side and near me, but over to the side and did whatever they did. I was completely oblivious. And then baby came to me. So there was maybe about three minutes before baby came to me. Yeah. And then afterwards, I was walking in the hallway and
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I passed by a room and it happened to be my doctor talking to another doctor and he was saying loudly, so I heard him, it all was because of mom's motivation. It all had to do with her motivation. I said yes and I moved forward because she wanted, she was gonna do it, she wasn't gonna quit. And that stuck with me forever. And that's one of the criteria that I've listed in my book of are you a candidate for breech Birth? That would be one of the criteria.
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care, not everybody is, and that's okay. Yeah, it's true, because you can't push someone, a mother that's not ready, into something that she doesn't feel comfortable with, for whatever reason. Whether she's been conditioned to believe it's dangerous, I think the same is true for home birth, right? Like, that's why I really just speak to women where they are, because we all, like, each of our stories are unique, and each of us come into birth with different
20:12
Mindsets, belief systems, value systems, we have different things that are important to us. And I totally agree with you. Like you have to want this for you and for your baby. And it has to be important for you because it might be a fight. It might be a battle to get an advocate for what you want. But if it's really worth it, you're going to find a way to do it. And you're going to find the support you need. You're going to find, you know, the information you need, the education you need, and all the resources are there. But if you're going to, if it's not like, if it doesn't really mean something in your heart and that's not important to you, like you said,
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a cesarean is a better option for you. Like there are so many factors in what's your lifestyle like, what kind of support you have at home, what kind of, like all of those things. And I think in the birth world, in the birth space, it's really easy to like, just judge people who have different ideas of what kind of birth they wanna have, you know? Whether it's medicated versus unmedicated, home birth versus hospital, like all the things. We get kind of judgy of each other and...
21:11
I do the same thing with my clients. And I love that you put this in your book. Like, what is it that mom wants? What's important to her? Like, let's start there. Yeah, and my community includes women whose babies were lifted out, absolutely. And they still are breech mamas. They still had a breech baby. Just had a breech baby a different way. And I think one of the factors that would remove someone from being a candidate for breech would be anxiety. And that's not a shameful thing. It's just-
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a reality. It's just a reality. Like when we look at the stats on it, I know in 2022, 2023, the NHS and mental health organization in UK listed 37.1% of women suffer from severe anxiety. And that's in the demographic. That demographic includes women who are childbearing years. That's not just teens or that's not just
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a selection of people post COVID who this, that's a broad age group that suffer from crippling anxiety. And you know, the things that are markers for that, general anxiety disorder, the NHS says is, you have tense muscles all day long. You have the inability to focus in your mind can go blank. You have major irritability, you have nervousness, and it goes on, the list goes on and on.
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those factors that a lot of women maybe aren't able to control aren't going to be conducive for relaxation and opening up and pushing through a natural vaginal or whatever you want to call it, physiological birth of a breech baby. And so that's, that's just a major factor. Yeah, so either you have some more work to do some some more inner work or
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You know, you choose the option that gives you the least amount of anxiety and either option is, is okay. There's no shame in either one. So I love that. Yeah. So what, tell us about your, what that did for you. How did that birth impact you and how did that carry out into your other four births? Yeah. So right after baby was born, I'm nursing him and my doctor looked at me and he, which I now think was totally prophetic.
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He says to me, that was such a beautiful birth. I hope all the rest of your babies are breech. He was right. You're like, I received that and it happened. Yeah, and I actually mentioned that to him fairly recently. And he's like, see, you see, I spoke it up. So what did that do for me? That empowered me. It also really got me thinking, this wasn't a big deal.
24:02
It was monumental, it was groundbreaking, but it wasn't wild. There has to have been, if we have this many people, eight billion people in the world, there has to have been a lot of reach babies, right? There has to have been a lot of people with a uterine anomaly. It's not as if I had some accident or a genetic condition. I mean, it is hereditary to have a uterine anomaly, but I wasn't special. I'm...
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quite normal. So how did this happen to me? This must be happening to a lot of other people. And so I started the breech Birth Community because I realized there's women out here who are getting absolutely bamboozled in the last few weeks of pregnancy and they need to know there's other women like you. And it empowered me and it gave me the motivation to start this community where people feel accepted, encouraged.
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and their problem, brief is a problem, their problem is helping to be solved. We find them a team, we encourage them, we empower them, we connect them with other women. We even connect C-section moms with other C-section moms. They know what to go through. So it's very networky. I love that, I love that. How was your, how did your birth feel? Like physically compared to your head down baby, was it easier or harder or more painful, less painful? Like,
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Did you ever compare? Yeah. So I think that there's two things happening here. I was the first time mom, when I had my head down baby. So naturally my birth was a little bit longer. I would say from first contraction to baby coming was about eight and a half hours. And then you moved to the breech birth was like, Quick. So quick, so quick. And subsequently,
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breech baby two, breech baby three, breech baby four, breech baby five have all been three hours or less. My shortest two were like an hour and a half. So my experience is if you just blankly asked me and I didn't have to look at any statistics, I would say breech is faster. Because for me, Karen, when they're rumping, when the baby is coming out and they're coming out folded in half, they're not crowning and receding and crowning and receding and.
26:27
Baby's coming, baby's coming. So it's quick. Yeah. I've heard other women who've had both breech and head down say that their breaches were actually easier because like the head was a lot easier to, I should say the butt is soft. So it wasn't as hard to push out than the head being like a hard skull. So they actually thought like it was actually easier than my head down baby.
26:52
I find it funny when a lot of people get worried about breeches. They say, well, it doesn't isn't the head going to get stuck, which there's some other factors that I'm not going to speak to that play into that. But the one thing that people think is, oh, head's going to get stuck because head is so big. But you have just pushed out the body folded in half.
27:12
Yeah. Which quite often is a larger circumference. Oh, it is. Yeah. Doctors do talk about that. Yeah, because the doctors are measuring and comparing in their brains the torso or the like the waist or the butt of the baby to the head. And yes, if you're measuring statistically, the head is larger circumference than the waist. But if you're talking folded in half, torso and legs, it's not, the head is not bigger. That's interesting.
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And fat, and I always tell women fat squishes. Yeah, and I think it's a scary talking point that a lot of providers use. I don't want to say a lot, but often providers who are looking to push their client away from a vaginal birth are going to say there's going to be cord compression, there's going to be neck flexion, there's going to be the head's too big. So there's, it's kind of one of those talking points. And you know,
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people just haven't been trained. Yeah, because there's ways to maneuver a breech baby. There's cardinal movements that a breech baby has. And like the cord prolapse is what you brought that up. And I think it's fascinating hearing Dr. Sue talk about that, that he says like, when you have a cord prolapse with a head down baby, it is more dangerous because the hard skull can cut off circulation. But with a butt or torso or legs, it's, you just.
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stick it back up in there. And it's typically not as big of a problem because it's fat and squishy. And there's not as high a risk of it being compressed and cutting off oxygen because it's not against a head. So I'm like, there's so many factors. There's so many, yeah, it's fascinating, right? Like it's like, oh, that makes sense. Like if you just use your brain, your logic, and you go, yeah, that's logical. Like it wouldn't be an issue. And he just sticks it back up in there. I'm like,
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And, oh, you could have a doctor panicking right in the corner, like the first emergency doctor that walked in and right back out, like, no, I'm not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like so much of it is our mindset and how we perceive breech birth as either a danger, an emergency or a normal physiological birth with an anomaly. Yeah, yeah, sorry. So how did how did your, you know, third, fourth and fifth and sixth babies happen? Yeah, so I ended up moving to a different country.
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So now all of a sudden I don't have my doctor anymore. And I was about 12 weeks pregnant and went to a birth center and went to the tour. And you know, you look, you see the provider USA now. Okay. So I moved to the U S and to the South and I'm at this birth center and we're having sort of, is there any questions? There's a whole bunch of moms altogether having the tour and I put up my hand, I'm like,
30:03
What if your baby's breech? How is that handled here? Because I have in my mind, I hope all the rest of your baby's a breech. So I'm thinking this baby could be breached. And I know I've got the heart-shaped uterus going on. And the lady who was doing the tours said, well, yeah, that's a high risk situation. You know, we're gonna have to talk about that. Kind of put me to the side. Afterwards, she came up to me and she said, listen, kind of on the download,
30:33
there's two midwives here who would be willing to do that. But we don't really say that out loud, but there's two midwives. Connected me with the one midwife and yeah, the rest is history because she's delivered now for my breech babies. And I had, my daughter was in fact breached and a lot of people do aversion. So, yeah, talk about that. I'm sure you know about it. The ECB. Yeah, so it's called- How do you feel about that? Yeah, an ECB.
31:02
It's a great question. So from experience, it's not gonna work for me because I have the septum. So you can externally manipulate my baby as much as you want, but you're never gonna spend my baby. So for me, it's just gonna be aggressive to the baby. It's gonna be stressful. Maybe stressful is a better word, not aggressive, because it can be done properly, but it's gonna be stressful to my baby and to me to try to make it happen when there's gonna be no outcome for it.
31:30
other than, oh, right back where we started. So how do I feel about it? For me, it doesn't work. I would say if you have a provider who would like to try that and you're done with trying it, go for it. If that would make you comfortable, try it. We've been receiving stories for the book and one story that we just got is very interesting. And she was sent for an ECV for her breech baby. But what was not communicated to her was that
32:00
they were actually scheduling her for a section. So when she was walking out the door after planning her ECV, which was supposed to be on a Friday, she came in, they were planning it. And then as she was walking out the door, she mentioned to one of the care providers how nervous she was. And they said, we shouldn't be that nervous because you'll have your baby in your arms on Friday. And in her story that she tells says, what do you mean I'll have my baby in my arms on Friday? I thought I was coming in for an ECV. Well, what they had forgot to mention was
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during the ECV at that care facility, they're setting you up for, just in case you end up going into an emergency C-section. So they'll have an IV on you and they'll have you being monitored and scanned and prepped for surgery, because when they do the ECV, if it's unsuccessful, immediate surgery. Oh. So that's just a- So not just like if it's an emergency and the baby's heart tones go down.
32:55
And we have to do a C-section, but like if it doesn't, if baby doesn't flip down, you're just right automatically get necessary. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That should have been communicated. Yeah. So I think that I would say, if you're looking to do it, make sure you ask all the questions. Make sure you find out based on other women's experiences. It's good to know that these things could happen this way. And yeah, it should be done properly by someone who's trained in it.
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and you should just do your research on it because it might not be the right option for you. Right, yeah, I appreciate that. So you had, you found an amazing midwife whom I actually know, she's here in my hometown. You can give her a shout out, she is amazing. So what was that experience like? You had this one in a birth center. Yeah, so I assumed that
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potentially my baby would come quickly and she did. This was an hour and a half long birth. So I was about 35 minute drive from the birth center and my midwife said, a second you get a contraction, just come in. Just come to the birth center. Is this telling her it's Lisa or is it the other midwife that works with her? No, it was the other one. Lisa actually was on my team, but Lisa got there and she was there to watch my placenta be delivered.
34:22
You missed it, it was too quick. It was too quick. So, he drove to the birth center and it was about three in the morning. And I just had my first contraction, got there at about 3.30, did some walking outside. I will mention too, at this point in my life, I was quite a bit younger and in a different place in my fitness level. So, I was doing triathlons at that time. So my-
34:51
fitness level was pretty high, which I think also assisted in making the birth quick and easy because I was used to, you know, the physical endurance. And yeah, she came out to contractions less than five minutes of pushing and boom, she was out. Wow. And did she have a similar protocol like a hands off breech? Oh, yeah. Thanks for asking. I definitely researched the different kinds of breech and found that I was more comfortable with the hands off approach.
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just from what I'd read, it was less invasive and more the way the baby was meant to come out. So I had researched that with her as well and said, what's your philosophy? Are you a hands-off breech? And she said, yes. And so that made me comfortable with continuing care with her. And so yeah, she watched baby come out. I was at this point, this is how this is different now. I'm not in a room with nurses, med techs, emergency room doctors who are scared.
35:49
Et cetera, et cetera. Just me and my husband, it is not bright, it is dimly lit, it is not a hospital bed, it is a birthing center bed, which is kind of set up like a bedroom. And I was on all fours on the bed. And that also is a great position to birth your breech baby in, so. Oh, amazing. And how did you feel about the second one now? So now you've done two breeches. Oh yeah, I was you four.
36:17
I was before it. I was excited because now it's not just, wow, oops, by chance, I had happened to have a safe-reach baby. Now it's, oh yeah, my body and my baby can do this. This definitely can happen. Now it's solidified in my mind. I've done this more than one time. It wasn't a fluke. And that was really encouraging for me. And also it was a successful outcome with this care provider. So now I'm comfortable with her for any future babies.
36:46
So thankful that I found her. Also, I was like, why am I not at home at this point? Now I have to drive back home after having the baby. I should have just done this at home. Is that what you said after that birth? Like I should have just done this at home. I definitely thought that. A lot of women do when they're like, this was very simple. Why am I, why couldn't I, I could do this at home. No, I was in a bed. I was like, you're in my bed. Exactly, exactly. So is that-
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So did you switch to home birth for your third, fourth, and fifth? Wow. And so, and you had the same midwife for those as well. Same midwife, yep. And at this point, she's just racking up breech babies. I mean, not just me, but she's had a bunch of other clients who've had breech. And so just totally comfortable with her and her approach. And how I birth Karen is I just my way, I know a lot of people are different.
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but I don't really love a lot of people in the room. And she's very, she'll stand off to the side and kind of just let me do my own thing and then come when needed. So she even really supported Jason, my husband, in being there to catch the babies too. So that would be amazing. So can this happen just like a normal physiological head down baby? Your husband can catch the baby.
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there's no fancy maneuvers needed unless they're required. And you know, you baby gets stuck, but like, was there any, any times that she had to, or someone else had to intervene for these, any of these breech babies, or did they all just come out on their own? Yeah, that's a great question. So I do know that for one of them, she did just give a little maneuver on the arm. So that did happen at one point, but
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All my babies, except for my last one, so for four of them, they were Frank breech, which is like a diver position. So they're up with their legs up against their body and their legs are straight and their feet are near their head. And then my last baby, she was complete breech. So that's more of like a sitting position, legs crossed. And the way that that was obvious is how they're being born. My Frank breech babies came down folded.
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one leg pops, the other leg pops, then they're hanging there, then both arms come, and then the head. My complete breech, it was, blap blap, feet are out, and now maybe it's hanging there. So the legs weren't up against the torso. So they kind of slide out earlier on, like the legs, sometimes you see the legs kind of dangling there with the butt, you know, because it's folded, or it's bent. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't it amazing that you know that though? This is a testament to how
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the social media community has supported breech birth and birth in general. The fact that you've seen this now, and you've probably seen videos, seen pictures, that was not the way it was. Yeah, you never saw it online before. It was, and it's like going back to the nurses and the doctors who if anyone should have seen it in your first birth, it would have been them. But even they're like, in my whole nursing career, I've never seen a breech birth. And now any, you know.
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woman, anybody on social media can see breech births and see not just like one but like hundreds of them. That's why I share birth videos because I'm like this is so important that women see this to know that this is normal and that they're capable of it and it doesn't have to be an emergency. The one I'm thinking of is actually the one I saw in person which was my client. She had the first thing that came out was the baby's balls like small and like baby boy balls
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The nurses were like, you know, chuckling like, well, you know what the gender is, dad, do you want to announce it? And then the mom didn't know. Yeah, they didn't know it was a surprise. And then the foot. So it's like a foot and balls. And I'm like, this is weird. That's what came up. So there's all kinds of variations among breech. So I think it's it's really cool. So your last one, they kind of she she or he.
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She came out a little different. So was there any moments that you were like nervous or was it just like, no, we'll just do a little twister-oo or hook here or there? Yeah, yeah. No, if I was nervous, I would say to be very honest, yes, there was nerves on my last baby, but it wasn't about her pre-breech. It was the nerves of, oh my goodness, I'm gonna have to birth again. Do you know that?
41:23
that actual moment that you can hit, it's like the baby has to come out of my body. I have to, I want this baby in my arms. I'm gonna need to push this baby up. Yeah, I have to go through this next part, but it's not my, I don't, this is the hardest part, yeah. Yeah, yeah, and it's not like an overriding thing for me, but I have had that thought, right? So yeah, I've had that, but no, never nerves about breech because I just know my body can do it.
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The one thing I will say is I also know my personality, not everybody's personality, my personality, is I don't quit. I'm not gonna quit something. I don't want to quit. So if I'm in the middle of pushing that breech baby, that breech baby is gonna come out. There's no chance that the baby's gonna be half out of me and I'm stopping and, oh no, now we have a baby and we have an emergency situ, that's not gonna happen with me. I'm pushing that baby.
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If I have to sit there and just give it all I've got, I'm gonna give it 150%. So that I'm sure pleasing to things. Amazing, amazing. What would you say to women who have a breech baby and are listening to this wondering, can I really do it? My doctor might be recommending a cesarean. Like where do you, you obviously have a large community of women and you help women and support them in this process where they're...
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providers are often not very supportive and finding other options or other providers. What how do you help these women? And what do you tell them? Yeah, it's a good question. The first thing that I say, because this happens to me every week. The very first thing I say is congratulations on your breech baby. I don't think that people are told that that's an initial reaction. You have a breech baby. So the first thing is like, congratulations. How exciting. You have a breech baby. And then from there,
43:20
It's do you have a team that is supporting you in having the birth that you want? Are you looking to change teams? Because some people say, no, I'm not looking to change teams. I just wanna talk to this through. I just wanna know what's about to happen. I just want a listening ear because I'm scared. It's two in the morning. My mind is racing. I don't know where to go from here. I have all the questions. Will you listen? That happens a lot. And then there are people who say, yeah, I'm...
43:49
I'm located here, can you help me find a provider? And that's all over the world. So in my highlights of my stories on at sign breech birth, you can find providers because people have responded and said, oh yeah, I know provider in here and here and here and here. And so then I just post that. So maybe people can check it out. When I first started doing this, oh my gosh, Karen, have you ever like over-functioned?
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Oh yeah. Like you're doing way more than you should. Yes, you have such a desire to help. So you're like, I'm going to go to like, yeah, yeah. So the very first woman I ever helped, she was in South Africa. And I mean, like I was on FaceTime with her. I was doing everything I could, calling centers in South Africa, trying to figure out. But now your phone bill comes, your husband's like, what, what's, what are you doing? Why are you calling South Africa? Yeah.
44:45
What are you doing trying to make this work? Now, the amazing part is where we are almost a decade later is we've built a community where people are just, they're responding and they're saying, actually I'm from that country. Actually I know, actually I had my brief baby here or I've heard this or are you looking for a hospital setting because I know these doctors will do it or if you're looking for a home birth, this group of midwives. So I've already seen times change and that's really exciting.
45:14
That is so cool. I've noticed the same thing in my field in different ways, but I love that, that social media is connecting us more and that women are being more empowered and informed. And they know like, well, my doctor's telling me this, but I hear a lot of women saying this, or I've seen this online. And it's like the information is empowering people. Now it's not all accurate information. So you have to do your research to know like, is this credible information? Is this legitimate? But
45:43
there's so much more accessible to us at our fingertips. And it's changing the culture of how we birth because women are realizing, I don't have to be bamboozled. I don't have to be fear mongered. I don't have to say yes, just because one provider says, I need to do something their way. I can actually not push on my back. I can vaginally birth my baby. There's so many more, because we're seeing these women birth, we're hearing about it, we're reading the stories. It's opening up the options, which I love. And I...
46:13
I love seeing that that's happening in your community because that's happening in my community too. And this is the work we do, right? Doesn't it make you so excited to like, then the stories come back and they're like, this happened, we had an amazing birth. Yes, yes. And I have to shout out, Reach Without Borders, Dr. Rick Safries, Dr. David Hayes, Christine Loria, who's the global midwife. Yeah, Dr. Sue, Birth and Bliss. There's all these incredibly
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experienced, competent research providers who are going out and teaching and making a difference, you know, and they're spreading it and it's the ripple effect is happening. It's amazing. The experts in breech, the doctors who've been doing this for decades and training other providers how to do it are the ones really leading this cause. And then you've got the midwives and the moms, you know, also working to get the word out in the doulas, they're a big, you know,
47:11
with this experience and knowledge, it's just spreading like wildfire, I think, because there's been so long that information has been either hidden or suppressed or only available in certain pockets or communities. And now that it's disseminating into the general population, it's not hard to find. So you make a post, and I'll see this too, and just online someone posts something about being scared of childbirth and people are...
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recommending, hey, check out Pain Free Birth or check out this account. You don't have to be scared. You don't have to birth like that. You don't have to, you know, and it's just really cool to see the tide shifting. So, yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. What exciting time to be alive, Karen. It's amazing. And I love that you're really leading this, not leading, but I should say, but one of the leaders, like of the many, like the ones you mentioned and really being an advocate for women who are stuck in this position because you can
48:04
You've been there five times, like you know. Yeah, well, and that's the thing, like the niche that I feel is that I can come from the mom side of it and say, yeah, I've done this. And like having the emergency medical background too to say like, hey, this isn't the emergency that it needs to be seen as, or people have seen it as historically. And I'm excited for my daughters. You know, I have three daughters and my oldest was in on a whole bunch of my babies.
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And she was a doula for me. And for her to see like, this is easy. Mom can do this. I can do this. I can believe in my body. It really is gonna affect the next generation. Oh my gosh. That's so beautiful. What a gift to give your children of the confidence to birth, to know that this is such a normal thing, that mom can do it. You saw mom do it. Like, of course you can do it. I just love that. Anything else you'd wanna share?
49:01
Tell us about how women can find you and the resources you have for breech births and how they can find you. Yeah, so we're working really hard on the breech book. It'll be the ultimate guide to a safe and successful breech birth. And that's gonna be for moms. It's gonna answer all the questions, talk about how breech is not a problem, give resources. We have a medical artist showing, we have a whole chapter on uterine anomalies because there's a lot of women in our community who have.
49:30
a unicorn at uterus, a bicorn at uterus, full septate where it's fully divided. Yeah. The list goes on. So talking about that stories from real women who've gone through these things. So that'll be out at the end of 2024. Aside from that, before that, you can find me on Instagram at breech Birth. And then.
49:55
you can go on the website of thebreechbook.com because I'd love someone's stories. If you want to put in your story, it doesn't matter if you ended up having a C-section or if you had a traumatic birth or if you had the most normal birth ever, we would love to hear and have those stories and you can also sign up for the first release of the book. And then I'm actually not really on Facebook a lot, but apparently there's a community on Facebook at breech Births.
50:23
that I started and is kind of on its own organism. Oh, awesome. Like a Facebook group where people share. Yeah. So it's your Instagram, your Facebook link. So it's linked to my Instagram. And then that's how you can find me. I love it. I love even just how you help women find providers in their area. And I don't know if you're still doing that. And what a great way to like, you're creating a network. You have a database. What an amazing resource, right? That's priceless. And like you said.
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Like you said, it's tough because people still have to do their own research because it can be static. Someone could retire or they could decide they're, they're not practicing in this area anymore. So you just have to do your own research with it. But what I would say is if you just found out that you have a breech baby or you're a doula or a midlife or anybody who's like, who's in my area, how can I do this? DM me and I'll put it in my stories and just watch the responses come in. And then we'll make it a highlight. That's what we do. And.
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Often I find women who have breech babies and have just found out, they're willing to change their teams and they're willing to travel. So be brave, go get the birth you want. Because even if it means driving an hour, if you know you're not gonna actually have your baby on the road, maybe that's what you need to do to have the right supportive team around you. I love that. That's beautiful. What a great place to end, I think. Be brave, ladies.
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have to have the birth you want and advocate for the birth you want and believe that you can do it. What a beautiful message. So thank you Jessica for sharing with this community about your stories and your resources. I'm sure it's going to impact many women and their births. So we just appreciate you so much. Oh thanks Karen. It was so fun chatting. And let me know when your book comes out. I will share it with my community. Yeah okay awesome. Bye ladies.
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Thank you for listening to this episode of the Pain Free Birth podcast. If you were encouraged, it would mean so much if you left us a five-star review and shared this with your community. I'd love to connect with you on Instagram at PainFreeBirth. To learn more about the Pain Free Birth e-course, free resources, private coaching, and upcoming events, find out more at painfreebirth.com. See you next week.
