00:05
Hi friends, welcome to the Pain Free Birth podcast. I'm your host, Karen Welton, a certified doula, childbirth educator and mother of three. In this space, we'll hear positive, supernatural and yes, even pain free birth stories from women just like you. We'll explore the deeply spiritual side of childbirth and how God designed women's bodies brilliantly for birth. Let's get started.
00:34
I am so excited to have the pleasure to interview Kemi Joy Johnson. You may know her on Instagram as Kemi Birth Joy Johnson, and she is truly a gem. She is a midwife practicing in London, in the UK, and she, her and I just feel like, Kemi, you're just such a kindred spirit. We were just talking about this, that everything you post and share about physiological birth and the woman's divine wisdom and
01:04
and how our bodies are so equipped for this. It is just so in alignment with everything I talk about. And you were saying you feel the same way. So welcome to the podcast. Yes. Oh, thank you. Really excited to be here. Was really excited to get your invitation. And because I see your passion and I see your posts and you're quite funny too, and in your face too. And I thought, yeah, we're kindred spirit. Yes. Just a quick correction.
01:32
only just to save me having to pay some legal fees. I was, I'll tell you my progression. So for mother, I was an accountant at the time, used to moonlight as a doula, then became a student midwife, then an NHS midwife, which is like an establishment midwife, then an independent midwife, which was glorious. I spent most of my time being an independent midwife.
02:01
And then I deregistered, so I took myself off of the Nursing and Midwifery Council register so that I could really serve women authentically and serve them in the centre. I serve no other god but them. So I was doing that instead of being on the register. So I am doing that. For doing that, I have to call myself a birthkeeper.
02:27
Because if I'm not on the Nursing and Midwifery Council register, I'm not allowed to call myself a midwife. OK, good to know. So yeah, and your system in the UK is set up a bit differently than here. Yeah. Which is probably worth talking about, because it can be a little confusing for parents to try to decipher what do all these letters and codes and names mean. Because in the US, we have licensed midwife or direct entry midwifery, and then we have C&M certified nurse.
02:57
midwives and the certified nurse midwives go through nursing school first, then get their midwifery license so they have more medical training and expertise. So some families prefer the licensed midwives, they feel a bit more holistic. Others prefer the more medically trained ones. I think it's really about whichever one you feel most in alignment with. And then of course, in the UK, you're
03:22
This is a great talking point. You said you were an NHS midwife. Can you explain what that means? There's NHS, then there's independent, and now you're deregistered, so you're considered a birthkeeper. I call myself a birthkeeper. Gotcha. So the National Health Service have monopolized midwifery training in the UK. So you have to be trained by the National Health Service.
03:50
Then with the academic work that you do with a university that works alongside the maternity units, depending on which area you're training in, you then, with combination of the two experiences and learnings, you then can apply to be on the register, the Nursing and Midwifery Council register. There's a problem. This is for another podcast.
04:19
Being nursing and midwifery combined is an issue. I might, you know, people say, well, you would say that because you're a direct entry midwife. I didn't do a full learning degree and then do a postgrad for midwifery. What I did was go into direct entry. So that's a three year degree for midwifery. Learning, you know, we did rotations through gynae and...
04:48
A&E, emergency room and everything. We did all the theatres so we could learn some of what the nurses learned, but then we branched off and completed our degree with midwifery skills. Because the National Health Service have the monopoly on that route, on the routes to registration, we, you know, all I learned in...
05:14
Oh, I've got to remind me of my swearing as well. I didn't check if I could do that. But all I knew, all I learned was how to mess up birth. We didn't learn how to support physiological birth. I had to learn that with independent midwives who took me under their wing in the second year of training when I actually thought I was going mad. So, and what was pushing me over the edge was women being abused
05:45
services. So it's one thing to not know how to support physiological birth. So I was being mentored in those services. It's part of my training. It's one thing, them not knowing how to facilitate it, but actively sabotaging it, disrespecting women, the misogyny and the violence pushed me to my absolute limit. So, you know, they patched me up to the independent middle, I've all retired now.
06:15
They patched me up and then said, please, just go and get your registration. So I went back in, snatched the rest of my training, got my registration, wasn't very long in the NHS at all before I was out as an independent. Yeah. And as an independent, does that mean you're practicing at home and in the hospital? Yeah. Okay. So you just have your own practice. Yeah. Really good question. We're mostly at home.
06:43
will follow a woman. This is the independent midwife. I'm now a birthkeeper, so they don't recognize me as a midwife, which is kind of good actually. But when I was on the register, if I went into a hospital with a woman, they would try to tell me, oh well, just sit down and shut up. You're a doula. But because I was on the register, if I didn't call out bad practice, you know, not only could my client, you know, throw me under a bus, but
07:13
so would my registering body, I'm supposed, if I spot bad practice or unsafe practice, I'm supposed to call it out from another registrant. So it was good because sometimes I'd go in and rather than them, you know, doing something horrible to my client, which I wouldn't allow anyway, they would say, actually, you can facilitate physiological third stage better than I can.
07:38
you know, by law, they ought to step aside acknowledging that I was better at something. So quite regularly, I would assist with the facilitation of the placental birth, even though I'm on the hospital premises, I would do that or, you know, a woman giving birth upright, etc., keeping a woman out of the supine position in the sodomy, you know, that's no good for birth.
08:08
UK, I feel like that is one thing they get right. I know there's lots of problems both in the US and the UK with all of these restrictions and ways of managing and frankly, abusing women in childbirth and sabotaging childbirth. Like you mentioned, we have these major issues that you and many others in this birth world are addressing. But one thing I do love that you mentioned is that if your client, home birth client transferred to the hospital, you would... Yeah.
08:34
continue, be able to legally continue to care for her and facilitate her birth or her third stage of labor, the delivery of the placenta, the pushing. Whereas in the US with a home birth transfer, you pretty much surrender a lot of your autonomy. At least the midwife is no longer legally caring for you. It's, you're at home with the midwife and then when you transfer, she might hang around, but she has no league like.
09:02
She's no longer your provider. The hospital doctors are your provider. And what they say goes. So there's much less continuity of care in the US. And they frown. I can imagine. They judge and frown upon home birthers in many ways. Now I've had- Oh no, we do that here. We do that here. It's just that when I was on the register, I could say, well, you don't know what you're doing, step aside.
09:29
And they respected you as a registered midwife. Oh no, no, it wasn't respected. Well, they at least let you practice in the hospital. Yeah, well, it depends. I could have just stood aside and let my clients be butchered and whatever else. But by law, because I was on the register, I can say, you don't know what you're doing.
09:54
you know, I'll take care of this. I've been left in the room by pouty NHS midwives who didn't like that I knew the third stage better than them. They just swing out the door, you know? So, it's not respected, not particularly honoured. And to be honest, they've virtually stamped out all independent midwives in the UK anyway. There's only a handful of them left. I keep saying us, because I really identify with independent midwives. But yeah, now, as a
10:23
as a birthkeeper, if I go in with a person and, you know, they say, and I make a suggestion and they don't like it. And then my client knows my skillset. So I'll say, well, they want to do this, this and this to you. And then they'll say, oh, you can't talk. You're not on the register. We'll get security. And then I can say to my client, would you like to leave with me?
10:48
You know, either way you could work around it. It's all power play, right? It's all power play and who has the credentials, who's in charge, who, you know, and and in the medical model, they only respect credentials. They were in your case, the registry is your name on there. And even then we're going to look down on you. But you had some legal grounding to step up and actually facilitate. Whereas in the US, you know, I've been a part of hospital transfers and the midwife has no.
11:16
authority in the hospital after that transfer. You know, she just sits there quietly and supports emotionally like they're not going to listen to her. They might, they might respect her skill as, you know, just out of professionalism, but legally they can't even defer to her to make decisions because they are liable in the hospital now. Like if once you go there, they are, and that's, I think one of the biggest problems in the U S is the pressure that law,
11:46
doctors and nurses, they're so terrified of the ramifications of being sued that everything is over-medicalized, over-intervening, over-management. Because what if you didn't? If you didn't, then you'll end something, something bad happened, then you get sued. So they over, you know, cross all their t's and dot their i's, which is to the detriment of women. And so it's a slightly different system, but still at the foundation, it's a foundation of fear.
12:15
and management and control. And so you have different laws, different rules, different... And I think it's interesting you're saying that even the independent midwives are being eradicated. You know, the system does not tolerate it, sounds like. No. And community midwives and home birth midwives and continuity of care midwives. Anyone who there's a hope of having a healthy, sacred birth with.
12:42
they're stamping us out, they're eradicating us. I just want to, you know, I want to toot the horn for the UK as well, because they beat the US because they're cutting open 50% of women to extract their babies, whilst I think in the US you're only at 40%. It's about 33, depending on the state, depending on national average is 33. It's been plateaued there for about 20, 30 years, but it depends on the state. Some states are 40, some states... Yeah.
13:13
you know, depending also on the hospital and the practice. But you guys are 50% cesarean rate across the board. We've got a couple of hospitals that reported a 58% cesarean rate in September. I know. Is this a recent increase? Yes. Oh, yeah.
13:32
I mean, it was getting really bad anyway, and then they've now excelled themselves. So congratulations, UK! Not a prize you want to win! It's not a prize you want to win! Oh no! Well, I mean, the US recently had a decline in infant death stats that are... How? Right? Like...
13:59
Nowhere else in the world is infant mortality decreasing. I should say it's improving. It's improving everywhere else in the world. And in the US, for the last two years... Oh, I see. No, we're with you. Yeah, we got worse. Oh, it went down there too? We got more dead babies. Right, more dead babies. Which it hasn't declined for like, since the 70s, I think. No.
14:28
only recently in the last two years during COVID has it gone down. And it's like, can we learn something from this that more management doesn't save babies? More management doesn't save babies and it's got nothing to do with the COVID jab either. But let's move on. Let's move on. Let's talk about your how...
14:50
How was your confidence crushed in this system? And you mentioned being coerced, complying. Is that what you were sharing about earlier where you were forced to work in this system? And like, tell me more about that. Yeah, I mean, they used to play with us as independents. Oh, you've got some insurance and they haven't. Oh, could you help us with insurance then? Cause then we can work.
15:13
No, we're not going to help you either. And we're going to work with another private company to make sure that the independent midwives, it's all the politics. And then I had some Googleable clients. And what happened? If you've got Googleable clients, I mean, I'm quite Googleable myself now because of my mouth, because I run it. But I had some Googleable clients. And.
15:42
when there was an insurance issue, rather than everyone behaving like an adult, they assigned one person to Google me, find out who's been celebrating a birth that I was a part of, then finding out their contact details and contacting them to find out if I'd attended their births. So what it was, and not so much of the independence,
16:11
But there was always this undertone for registration. Like I'd get threatened. People would say, oh, you attend a breach baby at home. That sounds dangerous. I might let your registrant know. You know what I mean? Like there's that threat all the time of having to sit and answer for why you're using your very well-homed skills to help a woman have a healthy birth. Like that sounds backwards to me. I don't want to waste time doing that. Yeah.
16:40
And also, be real, I'm quite active in groups that had traumatized women in them. And they would talk about how they were traumatized by a registered midwife. And it began to make me quite nauseous and ill and tearful to be aligned with people that would do that. So in the end, I thought ditch the registration, best thing I ever did. Now I just work direct.
17:10
the woman. So, you know, there's not many of us here in the UK that do that. There are becoming more of us. I must admit it's growing, particularly over the last year, when many more women are choosing to free birth. It's like, it's like they literally go, oh, I think I'm having a baby. You know, why? Oh, because they might fuck up my birth. You know, it's like, it's such a sad state of affairs.
17:37
I remember two decades ago when you said you're a midwife or whatever, people would still love and respect you, give you a cuddle and whatever and be quite starry-eyed about you. Not that I was in it for that, but now it's difficult to say, oh, thankfully I don't have to, but I'm a midwife. And then someone will tell you how a midwife put her in a thotomy, lied to her, held her down whilst her perineum was cut with an episiotomy scissors.
18:06
see what I mean? You just don't know. Now, if you say what you do, 50-50, what kind of response you're going to get. Yes. And that's true here too. I'm learning, you know, the more I talk to women and hear stories of women who said, well, I had a midwife, but she, you know, like told me, was telling, yelling me to push, or she was inducing me at 39 weeks. And these midwives are practicing with the same, you know,
18:34
in the same way that an OB practices. And it's hard to know now because I, I so advocate for midwives and the midwifery model of care, but just because someone calls themself a midwife, especially if they're working in a hospital system and that hospital has certain ways of doing things, that doesn't mean you're going to get the midwifery level of care. And there's, there's more, unfortunately, it's not clear cut here, here or there. And, and it's, you have to really do your homework and really
19:04
you know, discuss the things you want and interview the midwife you want. You have to interview them. And you really, I mean, I might actually create a resource to help people, you know, how to know if they're speaking to a real midwife or not, because we've kind of abused the term. It's amazing because I'm actually a real midwife. I'm a true midwife. You know, I reflect, I test myself.
19:34
However, the people that are registered midwives working in the NHS, you've got about 95% of them are obstetric nurses. They work to the obstetrician. They work to obstetric policies. They lie to the woman sat there in front of them or the perfect person. They lie to them about their capabilities. All your baby's too big, all your perineum's too short, all you're too fat.
20:04
You know, they are rank misogynists in a way. You know, people may have heard me say this before. I hold the midwives more responsible for the trauma that we're going through because we've been groomed that we can trust them. So the level of betrayal is higher. At least, you know, in my culture, because doctors have harmed us, you know, black people so many times,
20:33
I was bred with this instinct to not trust doctors, but I was taught to trust a midwife. So it's really traumatic to be let down by someone you perceive as a sister, as an ally. It's a very, very unusual, devastating situation, to be honest. Yeah.
20:59
Yeah, I can imagine. And I understand the women who choose to free birth or choose to birth without medical assistance for all the reasons you're mentioning because their trust has been so betrayed by doctors or even midwives who in previous births or in just the research they've done and realizing, I don't want someone meddling with my birth in that way.
21:27
know, it's because this is you're not just about like, well, I'm going to attack and speak against the, you know, establishment or the NHS, but we're and I feel like it's a fine line as an influencer. I'm not trying to create fear and make it us versus them and demonize the medical system, even though there's there is much to be, you know, corrected. But that's I don't feel like that's my job. And I don't and I know that you have a higher calling as well in this that you
21:57
in physiological birth. And I believe if we can help women understand the power of their bodies, that all the control, all the rules, all the management, it's like it becomes like irrelevant, not irrelevant, but at least like laughable. Like you're no longer subject to it. You're like, why would I do that? My body knows what to do. And it's like when women get this and they're so they're no longer controlled. They're no longer under the thumb of.
22:23
Here's all the hospital policy you have to abide by. Oh, my doctor said this, I'm not allowed to that. It's like all of that is just like BS when we realize the power we carry. And I truly love how you work with women in empowering them in their autonomy, in their birth preparation, and in teaching about physiology. And I'd love to hear your take on that and what you've learned and in how...
22:51
you incorporate physiology and just empowering women in physiological birth, because a lot of my listeners are pregnant women or couples preparing for birth. What are some of the things they need to know, regardless of where they're birthed? And actually, half my audience births in hospitals, the other half at home. So I have a really beautiful mix. And of course, yeah, I empower women no matter where they choose to birth, because truly it comes from within. Like, if we really get this, like,
23:19
Not that it's going to be more of a battle in a hospital, no doubt, but that internal confidence is what really matters. And I'd love to glean from a midwife who has been practicing as such an expert, truly an expert in physiological birth. I would love to hear from you. How can couples, how can women best prepare for birth physiologically?
23:42
How beautiful, what a beautiful opportunity as well. For you to have a 50-50 listenership is wonderful. And I mean, in this country, we still got 95% of babies being born on the labor ward or in the theater. So, you know, there's a small amount of people that will genuinely be able to practice what I'm saying, because even though it comes from within, environment will...
24:12
determine whether you're actually able to express the fullness of your capability, literally by doors being opened, people telling you scary stuff, people coming and standing in front of your vagina with three or four strangers to tell you scary stuff. That's all going to affect however strong you are inside. So, you know, part of my, part of my, what I want to express.
24:39
to people that want a spontaneous physiological birth is you're really gonna need to buckle down to figure out why you feel you're safer out of your home. Where does that come from? Where does that belief come from? Just to give you and your baby the best chance of not being harmed, we've done the studies too many times. You and your baby are subject to more harms on the labor ward. Or even if...
25:09
So sometimes the studies look at certain parameters and outcomes, and you'll never see them measuring how many babies received an optimal microbiome via their mother's vagina. You won't see measured whether the babies received their full blood complement. So you know, when here in the UK, when an eighth of an adult blood complement is removed from them.
25:38
you know, IE 500 mls, you get a cup of tea and a biscuit. When we cut away, you know, when we clamp off a third of a baby's, a third much bigger than an eighth, a third of a baby's blood complement with, you know, delayed cord clamping, which isn't long enough, or immediate cord clamping, the baby doesn't receive anything to compensate for that loss of fluid, right? So...
26:07
So I really would encourage, well, what I do when I'm preparing couples is encourage them to see that they cannot outsource their safety to the labour ward when it's been proven time and time again it's the least safe place for you and your baby to give birth, except in exceptional circumstances. Every single person I've looked after, whether they be
26:35
you know, essentially hypertensive, whether they have seizures, whether they've got a BMI of 45, they've all given birth safely at home. It can be done, you know, with intelligent, experienced care. So, but take it back to literally what the couple can do. First of all, start considering
27:05
Have you had blood work, tissue hair analysis? Find out what your, if there's anything that you can improve mineral-wise, supplement-wise, look at what you're eating. You know, as your, if you've got a male partner, how is his sperm and semen kept? Is he wearing tight shorts? Is he smoking weird stuff?
27:34
You know, all of this, if you're planning children, it's your responsibility to be in your best health. If you're planning children, it's your responsibility to ensure that you have the resources to buy your village because the village it takes to raise a mother and her baby,
28:01
used to be in situ, you lived with them, you lived next to them, you lived in the same compound as them. That's not the case anymore, you have to buy them because who used to make up your village may be part of a household where they need two incomes, so your mother can't take three months off to assist you anymore, or you know she may not have a pension, or you know your your father may be laid off.
28:28
There's so many reasons why you need to buy a village now. If you're planning your children, it's your responsibility to plan your resourcing of your village and being just straight up. Yeah, no, that's a good, a good word because it's true. It's not free today. You do, you have to pay for it. You have to plan for it. Please. Otherwise you're going to sit there and be alone and bitter, like looking for your village and. Yeah.
28:57
Unfortunately, that is just the reality of the modern culture we live in, is that we have to allocate resources to pay for a postpartum doula, a pelvic floor manifest, you know, meals. I mean, meal trains are great, and pulling on the resources and family and friends you have for support, and recognizing those people who are going to support you, and not just come over to hold the baby. There's the big difference. Oh, my goodness. Words. It's got to be said.
29:25
Honestly, you don't need that. Your baby just needs to be pressed against your chest. Press against yours or their father's chest. That's it, please. And I agree with Karen, the meal train serves a purpose. But honestly, you've then got to think about allergies. You don't want to defrost the meal, look forward to it, and then hate it.
29:49
You know, it's like, you know, with the best intentions, everything you put in your mouth postpartum matters. And in all honesty, you know, I recommend people like Lily Nicholls, you know, the first 40 days, etc. You know, Lily Nicholls says how you eat postpartum actually makes, it's more essential than how you eat during your pregnancy. Like, how you eat postpartum is everything.
30:15
So, you know, and, you know, prepare yourself for breastfeeding. You know, a lot of people want to argue about it. There is the argument settled breast milk has the constituents required to grow a healthy human, human milk for human babies. Okay. There's no two ways about it. Everything else is a substitute.
30:42
Yes. And you know, don't shoot me. That's just the way we're made. That's true. I know it's true. And I just love that you, you know, talk about this. When I ask about physiological birth and how a couple can prepare, you don't just talk about the birth as a midwife. You are interested in their holistic care from pre-conception through postpartum. And I'm listening, sitting here listening to you saying, this is a true midwife, a true midwifery
31:11
is someone who's interested in that family's entire childhood pregnancy family planning journey. What are you doing in preconception to stay healthy? What are you doing in pregnancy to eat healthy? What is your partner doing to have healthy sperm? How are you preparing for the postpartum? You're like a doctor's not going to ask you those questions in a hospital. An OB will not give two rips about what you eat in your postpartum period. This is truly, if you're sitting here and you're going, well, this is not how to prepare for birth. Yes, it is.
31:41
Yes, it is. Oh, yes, it is. And this is a midwife who's going to ask you about these things. And if your daughter or midwife is not asking you about these things, it might be time to find someone who does truly care about you. You need to find someone who really cares about you, really cares about the building blocks of your baby, really cares. I was speaking to a mother the other day, you know, I'm jumping around a bit, but hopefully the couples will get it. You know, I was speaking to her. She's so beautiful.
32:11
She went on and had a home birth after cesarean at home, but an early conversation we had was, oh, you know, how is your body? Because her first birth really didn't go according to plan. So I just started, you know, eventually after a bit of a conversation, I said, so what's your body like? Like, you know, do you have aches and pains? Any previous injuries? And she started laughing because she said like,
32:37
Her whole childhood, it was as if she was intentionally trying to break her body. And I said, and then you expected a perfect human to emerge from this broken body. And she was laughing. And then, you know, she said, but I said this to the midwife the first time and she had nothing to offer. And I said, well, yeah, if you've got injuries, that means you may have referral pain.
33:03
That means you may be carrying yourself in a slightly different way that may not be conducive to a baby coming out of your vagina. So you've got to think about previous injuries. You've got to think about what modalities you're using for injuries. It's like some people have said, I've got a great chiropractor. I go there every two months and I have adjustments. And then I ask them, I say, so why are you having to go every two months? Like...
33:28
What's happening? And then, you know, from my study of fascia, and I think I will become a Bowen therapist because I'm so fascinated by it. If your fascia is misaligned or wounded, but you have someone going in and adjusting your musculature, your cartilage, your skeleton, the fascia is going to pull it back out again. So that's why you need to repeatedly keep going. Well, for me, I can go to my Bowen therapist and not go again for a year.
33:56
And when I go back, it'll be for something, some other silly thing I've been doing with my body, like hanging out of a car window, slanted and stuff like that, or having a bad mattress or something. So, the other thing I think about is your body alignment. So as muscle, the so as muscle, holds fear and tension. So, what are we doing with that?
34:22
We can't just do physical things with it. We have to go to the seat of the problem, the fear and tension. Where's that coming from? What's happening in your mindset? Have you got buried worries? Are you that person that says, I'm really scared of labor and birth. I'll just pull on a happy face and whistle a happy tune. That's not the way to approach it. Or I'll just go with the flow or I'll just do whatever my doctor says. Oh, my God. God forbids to go with the flow. You really, really got to wrap.
34:50
Especially not with underlying trauma and fear. That is, the flow is going to be chaos and panic and anxious and doctors telling you what to do and taking your power. And that's not the flow you want. It's not the flow you want. And what I always say as well in my posts, I try and say, if you're not going to do it for you, please do it for your baby. Yes. Because a lot of us feel and myself included.
35:13
feel, oh, well, I just do this. I'm really uncomfortable about waiting till my baby sends their signals. So if I've not given birth by 41 weeks, I'll let them force my baby out. Have you thought about the effect on this little human? Yeah, right. That you really, really want to be good to? You really want to love this human? And the first act where you really have power is you disregard.
35:41
this little human and have them pounded out of your body with pitocin. Yeah, I know. Yeah, it boggles my mind how we so rarely consider the experience of the baby in the birth process. And they are having a human experience. And they will remember it if not consciously in their body. Their bodies will tell the story in the postpartum for potentially months or years of that trauma.
36:08
And we just think, oh, well, it's just a colicky baby or, oh, well, they just don't sleep or they don't eat or da da da da da. And yet there's lots of things about saying all like colic is from trauma, but there's there's only one way a baby can express and that's through crying. And if we just think we can pummel pitocin and then get the epidural and then get all the drugs and then suction them out or force them up and that they're not going to have lasting effects or some impact from that, we are going in blind.
36:38
and we need to consider the full impact. I 100% agree with you. It's not just about us. It's about the experience our babies are having and are we even connecting to them? I mean, that's a big consideration, not just for an induction, but for getting pain medicine and an epidural because that epidural disconnects you from your baby. And they are now suffering the intensity of the contractions without that maternal spiritual connection. Right, they're doing it alone.
37:07
And there's ways you can intentionally bond in that, you know, in your intuition, in your spirit, reach out to them, but it changes the experience. And it changes the labor, it changes the physiology, it changes the entire ballgame once you introduce drugs in the system. That's right. 100% couldn't have said it better. And so it's those kind of thoughts that I would love parents to have in mind before they become pregnant. Yeah.
37:36
And a lot of people, you know, they may just have a happy accident after, you know, having a lot of a boozy weekend, let's say. But honestly, we say we love our children. And you know, I'm speaking to myself too, because I don't want anyone to not realize that I too accepted an induction that cascaded to a caesarean for my first child. So
38:03
I'm just saying, don't do what I did, okay? I want you to really think about it. And even if you have a busy weekend and find yourself pregnant, please, from that moment on, do everything you can to enable you to have the whole health and the courage to stick by your baby, even when 36 weeks hits and you're showered in the dead baby card.
38:33
So that, you know, and they're all at it and it's mean. It's mean to threaten the wellbeing of a baby, a mother with the wellbeing of a baby. And they do it after 34 weeks when your amygdala, the little risk assessment part of your brain, is very sensitive because you can't see your feet and your center balance is completely off.
39:01
And so you're feeling extra vulnerable. You couldn't really run from danger and things like that. So your amygdala becomes more sensitized. It's an amazing adaptation, except you're doing it with criminal, hell-bent maternity services. So they know that after 34 weeks, they can pounce on you with any irrational fear and you'll suck it all in and be very malleable and do exactly as they say.
39:29
So the only thing I can hope to reach you with is, once you hit that stage, is to whatever statistic they give you, for a start, check it, because they all are timesing statistics by 100. So if something says it's, if something's not 0.2% or they're 10-timing it or 100-timing it, if something's not 0.2%, they'll tell you it's 2%. If something's 2%, they'll tell you it's 20%.
39:57
Or it's two times more risky or 10 times more likely. Yeah. Which is relative risk, not actual. Yeah. They do that all the time. Oh, you're, you're increase, you know, odds of stillbirth are 10 times higher after 41 or 42 weeks. And it's like, it's still 0.0002%. If you ask them, what are the actual chances of stillbirth? Get the actual numbers because they.
40:25
make it sound so scary. And when you have a very tiny number multiplied by 10, it's still a very tiny number. Now that might be too big a number for you, but it's your right to know what the actual number is and then make that decision. Absolutely. 100%. And as Karen says, you know, it may be, if it's too big a number for you, I really want you to feel into that. I want you to feel into what am I going to put me and my baby through?
40:54
because I think that number is too big, right? So, and I will tell you, most of the risks that they're waving in front of you, for the vast majority of you, are a difference of 0.1 or 0.2%. So let's take, for example, in the UK now, we've had more or less a doubling of the stillbirth rate. So it used to be 2%, but not 0.2%, forgive me, 0.2%, guys.
41:23
It used to be 0.2%, it's now around 0.4%, but it's got nothing to do with anything that's happened in the last three years, but we'll move on, right? I'll have to pick your brain about that later, I'm so curious.
41:39
actually is doubled. So they're making all of these suggestions that include like a little screw which they'd like to call a clip but it is a screw that goes into your baby's scalp to monitor the baby and everything else and they're pitocin, we're going to end your pregnancy right away with some dial-o-pan rods or a balloon cap or two or all the other weird and wonderful things they've dreamt up to do to women, a panel of men usually.
42:07
So they're doing all of that to reduce, you know, because they will tell you that your chance of cuddling your baby, a live baby, after this pregnancy, instead of being 99.8%, is only 99.6%. But so you can see, and like I said, the risk has doubled, right? And you'll go, oh my god.
42:36
That's why you've got to flip the stat. Whenever they give you a real stat, not a fake one, so you might have to dig for the real one, your people standing in front of you usually don't know it. So find out what the real stat is and then take it from 100 and then you've got your percentage. You will always find that you've got at least 99% chance of cuddling your well baby, you know, until they don't want you to cuddle them anymore and they wanna borrow your car and, you know, bring their boyfriends home and stuff.
43:05
It's, it's, I'm telling you, you'll see it's a tiny figure. And then if you're still not willing to take courage for your baby, ask yourself, why not? Why aren't I able to live with a 0.2% difference? Why? So you need to, and these are, this is the deep work. Those are good questions. Yeah, those are good questions. This is the deep work. This is, this is.
43:34
where you've got to question what you think about death, because literally none of us are getting off of this planet alive. None of us, not one, okay? So you've got to examine your feelings about death. You've got to examine whether to you there are things worse than death. There's somebody I'm very in full admiration of at the moment, a mother, Katie Spinks, who is speaking out on Instagram about...
44:01
what happened to her when she accepted an induction, because everyone's clutching their pearls thinking, did one of them die? Well, no. Her daughter is very harmed. And so she's living with that. And it's changed both of, well, her daughter's life is a challenge. And her life has changed forever.
44:31
You've got to question yourselves, what are you prepared to put your, if maybe you don't care about you, what are you prepared to put your baby through because of uncomfortable feelings about your birth and your pregnancy ending spontaneously? There's a lot of mind work I want, you know, if you're thinking about having children or planning children, you've got to dig down into your value system. Does it match your partners? Are you on the same page?
45:00
Are they full of fears and biases that means that they will throw you under a bus? Just for self-preservation because they can't cope with uncomfortable feelings. These are things that you've got to ask yourself. Does your partner trust you? Do they actually trust you? Because the baby's inside of you. So there needs to be 100% trust there. And if there isn't, it could cause a problem. Yep. That's good.
45:29
That's a really good word, like learning. I think that the journey of pregnancy in many ways for women, especially first time moms, is really so much about learning to step in our own confidence and power and not outsource our faith or assurance to someone else on the outside. And I hear women all the time ask me and DM me like, oh, my doctor said this and this, you know, what should I do? Or like my
45:58
my midwife or my husband said this, they're not comfortable with homework, they're not comfortable with, or that I should get an induction because I have XYZ thing going on. You know, what do you think? And I obviously, I can't give medical advice. I'm a doula. I'm not a midwife. But I also recognize there is this need for assurance and like a grasping for, I need somebody to tell me it's safe to do what my gut knows I'm supposed to do. And no one's going to give you that assurance.
46:26
that has to be developed internally. And you, sister, have to know that I am called as this child's mother and God has given me supernatural, divine, motherly intuition to make these tough decisions in the face of fear and coercion and manipulation. And that also includes the decision to maybe go into the hospital or…
46:47
get the medical assistance you need because you know intuitively something's off and something's not okay with my baby. It's both and and it's not that anyone can assure you 100% your baby's going to be okay. Nobody, if a doctor's telling you that, report him because nobody knows. Nobody can tell you. Nobody knows. There's no one can assure you if you have a home birth, if you wait until 42 weeks or if you do or you don't, that everything will go perfectly. There's always risk.
47:16
there is absolutely risk to an induction, to birthing in a hospital. There's risk to waiting. But know those risks, and even more importantly, know, have the assurance in yourself because that knowing goes deeper than the stats and the.002% chance in comparing this versus that and all the opinions of everyone around you. It goes deeper, the knowing and connecting to your baby.
47:40
and is this baby okay? What's going on? Is my body okay? Is my body healthy and functioning? Or do I need some help? Does my body or my baby need some help in some form, whether that's supplements, whether that's a medical intervention, whether that's a castor oil pack or whatever it is? Yes. There's lots of options, but don't run around like crazy like a chicken with your head cut off thinking, I got to get this baby out because somebody scared you.
48:08
that baby was about to die and your placenta was about to fail. You know, you know inside, this is what your intuition is saying and stop looking for reassurance to everyone else around you. When that knowing comes from within, it comes from your source. So that's, oh, I don't know, I got on a rant there, but I felt like somebody needed to hear that. No, that was true. Yeah, I was just thankful for saying that. I want to ask you about pushing.
48:36
and how you coach women or not coach women or how you facilitate or support, I should say support would be a better way to ask it. How do you support pushing or the pushing stage with your clients? Oh, I love this one because there's a baby that's just a few days old, born to a first-time mother. She prepared really well during her pregnancy. Me, her and her beloved.
49:05
We had quite a few uncomfortable conversations because they're first time birthers and they were preparing in a way that most people around them weren't preparing. So as you can tell, I can be a bit confronting sometimes, but it comes from a good place. And then she went into spontaneous labor and she was having a home birth.
49:32
and she was in the pool and she's been beautifully served by her husband, her sister, so they're not related, but she's definitely an angel walking on the planet, and her beautiful, humble mother, and they served her by doing deep work during the pregnancy. So it wasn't just her and her husband, but her mother and her bestie, they also did the deep work.
50:01
and then the labor started and the physical ardor of it, it was very arduous because it was her first and you don't know what you don't know and there's a lot of unknown and unexpected and it's all tricking together nicely and I'm not saying a word, okay? So people might say, God, what did they pay you for, Kimmy?
50:25
I'm not saying a word. It's like, you know, just it's intentional. A good midwife knows how to sit on her hands and do nothing. I'm so used to sitting. I don't even need to sit on my hands anymore. I can sit with a piece of cake and a cup of tea. And then in the end, I see them all walk. She's out of the pool again and she's in the sofa. She's in the loo first of all, then she's on the
50:54
the way women instinctively move when they're in labor. They kind of careen around. It's so beautiful. But she's on the sofa and then I just suggest maybe lie on your left hand side and have a little sleep and you know, she has a sleep cry. And then I see, and I'm sitting outside with another cuppa and another slice of cake. And then I see, I see her, her beloved team leaving the room slowly looking a bit
51:24
distraught and I said, what happened? She said, oh, she told us to get out. And so they did and they were very worried about it. And I assured them that they'd be able to hear when the baby's coming. So they won't miss it. And they heard and recognized. So I didn't give, I didn't tell her anything. She just started panting and then she called her husband.
51:53
And then he went in and I heard her say, the head's out, catch the baby. Does that answer your question? I don't coach pushing. I love that answer. Yes. That like makes my heart full. You have no idea because so many midwives still think you have to force push a baby out.
52:21
Did you give her any vaginal exams? No. No. So, you're telling me... What goes up must come down. You're telling me she knew intuitively, oh, I need time alone, kicked everybody out. Yeah. Yeah. That baby descended, she dilated fully, her body pushed the baby out, pushed the head out, and then she called her husband to catch the baby. And nobody had to tell her what to do or how to push. No. No. No. Nothing.
52:51
Is that how many, is that just like a rare circumstance or is that possible for anybody? No, you'll never hear me say push. It will never happen. You can speak to all the hundreds of women I've supported in this one-to-one continuity care in the home birth. You'll never hear me say the word push. When I was in units, we were taught that you had to do it, but thankfully the independents got hold of me and said, what are you doing?
53:20
What did they say? Tell them to push? Do it! You know, we're a bit obtuse sometimes here in London, you know, say, what, do you follow her into the toilet when she's having a clap? And tell her when to push then? That's yours me. Exactly! That's yours me. Oh, yes!
53:44
Thank you. Yes. Thank you for saying that. They fixed me. That's exactly what I tell women. Does someone have to tell you when to push your poop out? No. Okay. Tell me about this. Do you, in the UK, this is what I've heard, at least from some research I've done on the second stage, and I've studied it extensively. I've heard in the UK that they don't, they did a study years ago because they had extremely high rates of severe tearing, like third and fourth stage tearing. Yes.
54:13
And so they implemented this new program at one hospital that said, we're not going to coach women to push. We're not going to say the word push. So they said, you're not allowed to tell women to push. And so they didn't. And the rates of severe tearing drops like 90 something percent from like, it was like a seven or 4%. I can't remember exactly to like less than 1%. And it was so remarkable. They said, we're implementing this all over the UK. We're not going to coach women to push or tell them to push.
54:43
And now I don't know if this is happening with all that. This was years ago. Send me the research. I will. Yeah. But childbirth is thousands of years old. Oh, I know. There's lots of old research that bears water, unlike today, where the majority of research is by industries that are making money out of the outcome. So they skew the hunches. Yeah. So.
55:09
But it seems like there's at least some understanding of that passive second stage where the baby is descending and rotating before, after the mom is fully dilated, okay, you're 10 centimeters and before they start pushing. Because in the US, that stage, that time period doesn't exist. It's, oh, it doesn't exist. No, you're 10 centimeters, it's time to push. And they might say, okay, we'll give it, we'll wait until you have the urge. And they come back 20.
55:39
30 minutes later, okay, you have the urge to push. And the mom's like, yeah, I feel the pressure. And they don't know. So they go, I guess so, yeah, I feel pushy. And I tell women pushy is not the same thing as the overwhelming urge to push. And your body's gonna, it's okay if you feel pushy. Just let, cause all those things, there's many things that have to happen. That internal rotation and dilation, that pulling up of the cervix.
56:05
I've heard they do a bit of a better job with the pushing phase in the UK. Now, maybe that's shifted with the wiping out of the independent midwives, but here we butcher it. Do you know, I think you're amazing to remind our listeners that things are changing. Things have changed, obviously markedly for the worst. But we do, when I was being...
56:33
Port Midwifery, so that was in the noughties, we did seem to have an appreciation of if a woman had had a first-time birth, I think, I can't remember the rules, it's so long since I've worked in those environments, but I think you've got two hours passive descent before pushing. If you had, if a first-time birth had a nepidural on board or something, you got one hour if you'd given birth before.
57:03
vaginally. So I think, yes, I remember that alone is unheard of here. We don't have those unbelievable. There's no two hours or one hour. And I mean, and it could be longer. It's even to set a time limit is very like archaic and linear and birth is not linear. So even to say, oh, you get two hours and then you have to push is, is not.
57:29
problematic, but the fact that they give you two hours as standard, whereas in the US it's, there is no two hours, it's 10 centimeters. All right, let's get you on bed and you're on your back and start pushing. And it creates so many complications. Babies getting stuck, four hours pushing, fourth degree tears, because we didn't allow that baby to descend. And it boils my blood because it is standard practice here and doctors have no comprehension.
57:57
of that passive descent that you just mentioned. And at least it's, it's, there's some knowledge of it there, but it's my soapbox. Yes, there is some here. Right, I'm really glad it's your soapbox. I'm actually, I'm going to go after it here because what sabotages we have of that process is like having a woman in lithotomy or saying to a woman, I'm going to have my hand all over your perineum. We've got something called a perineal bundle.
58:27
or a wastey care bundle. Tell us what that is. Oh man, do I have to? It boils my blood. We have that here too. We might not call it the perineal bundle. We call it like managing the second stage or the third stage, depending on where it falls. It's just mean. Yeah, we drafted it in and like any other thing that's poorly evidenced in against birth physiology,
58:56
we like to implement that faster than anything that's actually helpful for birth. So, you know, women are having strangers talking to them when they're about to meet their baby, telling them that they'll tear from front to back unless I have my hand all over your genitals. So it's not a case of, oh, I'll give you a warm compress to keep you comfortable. It's this defeat.
59:25
that if I hold your perineum in a grip, something called a finished grip, if I hold it, then that means that I am responsible for preventing you from having a horrible tear, except they're having horrible tears at the front instead, urethral and clitoral tears. Oh, wow. Because the energy of the push is being directed.
59:52
up towards the vulva rather than the perineum that is actually made. The perineum is made for tearing. It heals so beautifully. It can heal without sutures. But instead, because of the small percentage of third and fourth degree tears, which we know would have been caused by induction, especially with pitocin IV, it changes the way-
01:00:22
So it's stretching that perineum too. That's right. Because if you've got lithotomy position, just like Karen said, you're bringing the perineum in front of the baby and the baby is going kind of with gravity towards the perineum. So how can it not tear? It has to go through it. It has to go through it. And it doesn't have to go through it, but the way they position you, what else can happen?
01:00:46
Would you say, let me ask you this along these lines, would you say that most all third and fourth degree terrors are due to how the team managed that stage? Mostly. Occasionally, you'll have a woman that's rushing. So she's rushing to get the baby born because of some sort of fear. Somebody who's having a vagina birth after cesarean may be in a real rush because she knows this baby has to be born vaginally and she might...
01:01:16
you know, have a third degree tear, or you have somebody who's rushing because the doctors have said if this baby's not born in 10 minutes, we're going to use forceps and she doesn't want forceps. So she pushes that baby through a perineum that's not quite ready, or the position one that we already talked about, or the perineum is going to respond differently to pressure because of
01:01:45
They found that people with IV Pitocin will more likely have a more severe tear or tear more regularly because the perineum acts differently. If people have had an epidural and they can't sense how they're pushing the baby at the perineum, that's also an increased chance of a big tear. And obviously the use of forceps and instruments or cutting at a episiotomy that extends into a big tear.
01:02:13
So with all of that, they've not changed any of that, but they just want to have their hands all over your vagina. Yeah. This is, you know, all those things that I've mentioned could be changed or improved. No, we don't want to do that. We just want to increase the intervention. Right. Yeah. And I've seen it with their hands all stretching the perineum as baby's head is coming out. And I just go, why? Like.
01:02:42
And then I literally and the mother's been like, tell, tell her stop that hurts. I don't like, and she just keeps doing. I'm like, okay, now this is a violation here, but it's so standard for some providers to just totally blow through your bodily autonomy and think that, Oh, I'm helping you and you need to, or I'm going to put pressure here. You need to know where to push so you can push harder and faster. And if we really just didn't touch her at all, it would, it would usually turn out just fine.
01:03:12
Yeah, I used to have to have the tea and cake to stop me from practicing some of the nonsense that I was taught in my midwifery studentship, but now I just prefer life that way. So I don't do any of those things anymore. You see, here the midwives knit knit. It's the granny midwives knitters. Yeah, yeah. I love it. I used to do knitting, but now yes, cake, the cake has it.
01:03:41
But I feel like what you're sharing is such gold. And I'm really hoping that more and more people will hear this logic. We're not saying that things don't go off piece sometimes. Of course they do. Everything in life, they've got this slight room for things to go the way you don't want them. There's some people that can't breathe normal air.
01:04:08
There's some people that can't go out into the sun. There's some people that have a really bad reaction through water. There's all sorts of things that potentially could go wrong, but they're all rare. There are things in childbirth that could go wrong, but they're really rare. And that's why we have women like you there for those rare situations. That's why I love my midwives, because I say they're not.
01:04:37
there to teach me how to birth, like my body knows how to do that, but they're there for that one or two percent or less chance. Oh, it's playiness. Yeah. Or even not necessarily life-threatening things, but there are things they can do to support and help that might be beneficial, not metal. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. I love that. I love how you support women.
01:05:02
just the beautiful trust you have in women and in the physiology of birth that is so rare, unfortunately rare these days, but also it's ancient and it's basic and it's simple, it's logical, it's what we've been doing for thousands of years, it makes sense. And as someone who's gone through the whole system and seen how they practice and seen the abuses and seen like, well, why are we doing this and questioned it and gone, hmm, there's a better way. And I can't…
01:05:32
participate in this anymore, I have to be true and authentic to myself, and that takes a lot of courage for someone. And so I just want to encourage any of our listeners, I want to mention some of your resources on how women can find you because you offer some beautiful supportive services to women who are facing, you know, fears. I love the questions you ask. If you're someone who said, you know what, I need someone to support me in birth and ask me those tough questions.
01:05:59
Or I need someone with experience who understands certain risk factors to be able to tell me straight up to my face, like, if this is really what the real risks or dangers are, if you need that second opinion from someone with expertise in this field. I encourage you reach out to Kemi on her Instagram at Kemi birth Joy Johnson and tell us about the the birth hours that you have for women. Yes. So I have.
01:06:28
power hours. I notice a lot of people are having power hours now, but what mine includes, it could be time spent planning a pregnancy, an ex-pregnancy. Say if you've come through a birth that had challenges in it and you'd like to know how to set yourselves up as a family for an ex-pregnancy and birth.
01:06:53
talk about that. We can talk about a particular instance that's happening in your pregnancy. Somebody said that you have low papay, so taking away all your choices. Or if somebody says, you're too small, your BMI is too low and taking away all your choices, or your baby's too big and taking away all your choices, or gestational diabetes and taking away all your choices, etc.
01:07:21
I'm really good at the lateral thinking, the questioning, how else could we do this? What's the safest option? What are equally as safe options? What is a challenging option? Everyone's heard me talk about physiological birth all day, but two weeks ago, I recommended a prime civilian for somebody. So I'm not this person that is doggedly-
01:07:50
Why did you recommend the Caesarean? Right, okay. Because the team she was with don't understand how to facilitate breech birth. So then she had distance to the next hospital that do, she had trauma from the previous birth and she was like, well, you only find out whether the baby can only be diagnosed as breech from around 36 weeks onwards. So she was like in her 37th week.
01:08:19
And the upshot of it all when measuring that she hadn't really had an opportunity to heal from the first birth trauma. So that's going to affect how her body responds. And the fact that the team serving her sadly allowed themselves to be, well, criminally, allowed themselves to be de-skilled. So they weren't aware how to safely facilitate a breech birth. She had...
01:08:47
budgetary issues, so she couldn't hire an expert to come to her home. And she had a partner that really wasn't ready for a physiological birth of a breech baby. So when taking all of that into account, despite me being able to give her options and send her links for the options, my recommendation was a planned cesarean at the unit that she knew.
01:09:14
So then I, you know, obviously the later the better. So, you know, kind of wait for when you're feeling like the body is preparing to let go of the baby because your body expertly holds the baby in with this lovely thick cervix, this thick long cervix. And then as you start to get, you know, more mucous discharge where your mucous plug is starting to come away and...
01:09:40
you know, the more you're looking to check what time your hubby's coming home and things like that, that's your body, you know, the more colostrum you're waking up with, you know, you're crusted onto your knuckles overnight and things, you know, all of those are signs that your baby is coming into land. And when you're getting those signs is an is a kind place to plan the caesarean for rather than planning it weeks in advance for a random number.
01:10:07
Wow. That is so beautiful. I just want to comment on how I love how you took all things into consideration in her life and in her preparation and her situation, whether financial and emotional and mental. And for her, that was, in your expert opinion, the best option. And two things, it goes to show like, yes, we can birth, reach babies, we're fully capable, but that doesn't mean it's right for every woman to pursue a home-breach birth. 100%.
01:10:36
there are all these factors that you mentioned. And two, we can have a cesarean and still treat ourselves and our babies and our bodies humanely and honor the physiological process happening, even as our bodies prepare for labor, with paying attention to those signs that you mentioned, that we can honor our bodies in its preparation to give birth. Even in planning a cesarean, it doesn't mean, oh, everything's out the window, we're just going to...
01:11:04
have a cesarean and it's like this failure in a sense. And it doesn't have to be that way. We can make an honorable, intuitive wise decision and still honor our bodies in other ways, even when medical intervention is the best option. And so I actually think that's brilliant. I love that you shared those details. I'm really glad that you gave me an opportunity to share that because the power hour really is an hour of power. It's not just a...
01:11:32
power hour for people having spontaneous physiological free birth, you know, it's for everyone. I'm not going to ever lie to you though, if you're saying, oh, you know, I want to have an honoring
01:11:49
I'm going to tell you the truth. Your baby would prefer a physiological birth, that's going to set them up better for health. But yeah, but we'll always have an honest conversation. I'll always need you for something, with something to think about anyway. I love it. So if anyone out there wants an honest conversation, make sure you hit up ChemE and participate in those power hours. Well,
01:12:14
Thank you so much, Kemi, for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom with us. It is just gold. There are so many gold nuggets that I think we have to walk away from this. Thank you. Thank you for the work you do in supporting women. It was a pleasure to have you.
01:12:30
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Pain Free Birth podcast. If you were encouraged, it would mean so much if you left us a five-star review and shared this with your community. I'd love to connect with you on Instagram at PainFreeBirth. To learn more about the Pain Free Birth e-course, free resources, private coaching, and upcoming events, find out more at painfreebirth.com. See you next week.
